Rentals.ca and Raising the Roof have announced an exciting new partnership! So today, we are thrilled to be joined by the Director of Housing Development at Raising the Roof, Adrian Dingle. We begin our conversation by learning about Raising the Roof: its origin story and history, what the company does, and why its new venture with Rentals.ca is a match made in heaven. Then, we discuss the standout achievements that gave Raising the Roof its stellar reputation, how it garners support from various branches of government, what a day in Adrian’s work life looks like, and what he looks for in an ideal development partner. To end, Adrian details the challenges of his work and what other industry leaders could do to alleviate these pain points, and discover how to get involved with Raising the Roof and other initiatives that are aimed at curbing Canada’s housing crisis.
Key Points From This Episode:
Listen to the episode wherever you get your podcasts, Apple, Google Podcasts, or Spotify.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
"And I think it counts for a lot that we have our history of the Toque Campaign and our history of being a national charitable organization for more than 25 years. A lot of Canadians, you’d be surprised by how many people would say, you know, when I speak to them on the phone or if I meet them, they say, “Oh, you know, I’ve got a Toque like that, it’s in my closet, like what my kid brought it home from school.” Or, “I bought one on the subway in Toronto” or something like that. We have that past of connection with Canadians, in association with the Homelessness Prevention and Advocacy, and that counts for a lot. It means that we have opportunities to advance our development portfolio, which is fantastic.” - Adrian Dingle
[0:00:33.0] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to another episode of Sync or Swim, brought to you by Rentsync. From operational challenges to marketing mastery, we uncover the strategies in technologies and all things PropTech. So, let’s dive in as we explore the trends, tactics and insights that define the future of multi-family investments. Sync or Swim, Starts now.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:55.7] GL: Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of Sync or Swim, the podcast where we navigate the currents of the rental housing industry. I’m your host, Giacomo Ladas, and joining me today is Adrian Dingle, Director of Housing Development at Raising the Roof. Adrian, thank you so much for joining me today, I’m really happy to have you on.
[0:01:10.3] AD: Hey, thanks Giacomo, the pleasure is mine.
[0:01:12.0] GL: So, the reason why we wanted to have you on is because of the new partnership that has been announced between Raise the Roof and Rentals.ca. So, no better time than to you know, do a little promotion behind that to have you on. So, I think it’s all really timely. So, I think the place to start with all this, for those who maybe don’t know, is maybe you can give a little overview of Raise the Roof.
What’s your mission and what kind of work do you guys do and really frame it in a way that people can understand why the partnership between Rentals.ca and Raise the Roof makes so much sense?
[0:01:40.9] AD: Yeah, absolutely. So, for a long time, Raising the Roof has been a homelessness prevention and awareness charity for almost 26 years and the Toque has been a symbol of homelessness prevention in Canada for that time. More recently, just since 2020, Raising the Roof has taken on more of an affordable housing development and real estate development side of what we do, which is why I think the mission with rentals is so aligned in terms of what we’re doing and what we’re working on.
We create new purpose-built affordable rental housing as a way of preventing homelessness in the communities that we serve and kind of as an additional side of what we do, we facilitate new trades training opportunities. So, this is you know, an opportunity for people that might have barriers to employment in Canada. Any of our active construction sites, we work with local social enterprise groups to facilitate trades trading.
So, this is basic carpentry skills, basic job site training and etiquette and also, some soft skills like timeliness, how to communicate with clients, all that kind of stuff gets worked in there. So, from two angles, we’re doing our best to prevent homelessness in Canada, creating new opportunities in trades and construction and also trying to create some new rental housing, which is where we really align with, we focus at rentals.
[0:02:45.1] GL: Yeah, and I think anecdotally as well, like, once this partnership started to kind of – the rumblings began, I think that was something that really grabbed my attention was that it’s not just supplying housing. It’s actually helping people empower themselves in order to make really meaningful changes in their lives and I think that’s kind of how you tackle something like this, right?
You really have to help the people and help them almost find a way that they can maybe find the best way possible moving forward to express themselves and find the current path that helps them. So, I think that’s just something that really ties it all together and what we try to do at Rentals.ca is that you know, we want to be more than just an online marketplace. We want to really be able to connect with people who use our site and I think it’s just a perfect opportunity for us to kind of combine our best trades in this partnership.
[0:03:30.0] AD: No, absolutely, and it’s a fantastic opportunity for us, we’re very keen. I think you know, there’s honestly a potential for us to work together in terms of lease up and software and stuff like that in the future. For now, the partnership of being able to you know, show our Toques on your website and talk about Raising the Roof’s commitment to homelessness prevention is crucial and it represents, you know, a significant commitment on the side of rentals that you guys are interested in supporting an organization like us. So, very much appreciative of it.
[0:03:54.1] GL: Yeah, absolutely, and maybe to get our listeners to understand why we’re so keen on it, you can maybe share some achievements or milestones or some highlights that you’ve seen over the years that really just shows like how the hard work that you guys are pouting to place in how it’s coming to fruition to really affect some people.
[0:04:09.3] AD: Yeah, big time. So, we’ve had a very interesting journey and it started with the idea of the RESIDE program, which was just a philosophy in 2020 and resulted in the purchase of an old church property in Caledon that we renovated and it impacted a ton of people who were going through the trades training program at Building Up, which is our local Toronto and GTA area, social enterprise partner.
They had a ton of trainings to come out and contribute to the work there and now, that property is long-term affordable with supports housing, specifically for people with developmental disabilities. Being able to see and visit the people in that space and see them benefiting from the opportunity to have customized care in the place that they live and also, seeing the outcomes from the trainees was what really spurred the growth of the program over the past three or four years.
Since that initial inception in early 2020, Raising the Roof has grown dramatically. We now have more of a multi-family angle to what we do in terms of the projects and the properties that we take on. We can have an impact at any point in the development cycle and across a lot of different property profiles from purchasing single-family homes, adding density whenever possible.
Taking advantage of the new R1 zonings to give us up to three units as of right on those properties, all the way up to you know, hundred unit, 150 plus unit, new construction developments that we can facilitate in order to create new affordable housing and even mixed-used developments in some of the communities that we serve. So, to that effect, we have our own equity investment projects.
And we have those projects that we manage and development manager for clients and combined, we have you know, almost 300 units of new affordable housing purposeful rental coming to the market in Ontario and now we’re expanding into Manitoba’s, particularly into Winnipeg. We’ve had tremendous uptake from our partners at municipalities at the federal level, at the provincial level, as well as generous donors.
And industry partners like rentals that have helped propel us into this terrific pathway of growth. I’d say, you know, things are going really well and we’re being able to have more of an impact than we ever had before in terms of a homelessness prevention angle and we’re doing our best to kind of keep up with the growth in a way that’s sustainable for the organization. So, I think that the next part of our organization’s path is going to be finding ways to grow sustainably.
Being able to take on projects even faster and trying to find that unified funding that’s necessary for new affordable housing projects to proceed at the pace of development, rather than being held up by the capital needs of the projects.
[0:06:29.9] GL: Yeah, and I was going to ask you a little bit about that but you kind of answered it there. It sounds like your organization really does seem to have the backing of those municipalities and different levels of government, right? So, it seems like it’s – everyone kind of seems to be behind this initiative in so much as now that you guys are expanding out of province really, right?
And we're going into areas like Winnipeg. So, it seems like there is some pretty solid backing behind it all as well, clearly showing that people are really connecting to what you guys are doing.
[0:06:54.9] AD: Yeah, and I think it comes down to a couple of things. One is our track record of proven housing development expertise and I think it counts for a lot that we have our history of the Toque campaign and our history of being a national charitable organization for more than 25 years. A lot of Canadians, you’d be surprised by how many people say, you know, when I speak to them on the phone or if I meet them.
They say, “Oh, you know what? I’ve got a Toque like that, it’s in my closet, like, my kid brought it home from school.” Or “I bought one on the subway in Toronto” or something like that. We have that past of connection with Canadians, in association with the Homelessness Prevention and Advocacy, and that counts for a lot. And it means that we have opportunities to advance our development portfolio, which is fantastic.
[0:06:54.9] GL: Is that kind of what your role resonates? As you know, it seems like, you know the director of housing development could be a lot of things but maybe kind of – you know, I’m just generally curious. Like, so, what is your role then in this? Is it crowdfunding? Is it really, like, getting the right people in the right place? What’s kind of involved in your day-to-day and also, you know, basically, what do you guys look for throughout the year?
[0:07:52.9] AD: So, before I worked with Raising the Roof, I was a boutique condominium developer. I was developing apartment-style condos, predominantly luxury in secondary communities and tertiary communities north of Toronto. Mostly, Miscota’s, Barrie, Simcoe County, that kind of area and now, this opportunity with Raising the Roof kind of takes that skillset of a residential developer.
And applies it to a more social purpose lens, which has been personally fulfilling and also great for the organization to be able to work with private market experience like myself and some of the people on our team but applying that to new affordable housing developments, where it’s typically nonprofit-led and lots of different nonprofit partnerships.
My day-to-day and my work is really you know, I think of the role of developer as that of somebody who can solve problems. You have to find new opportunities and you have to see what the problems are and you have to make sure that they’re solvable and then, when something comes up unexpected, you have to be ready to take it on and work with it. So, distilling that to actual practical use, finding new properties.
Finding new relationships with municipalities that are interested in working together to develop new affordable housing assets, finding the funding necessary in order to do that and then taking projects through the development cycle in terms of creating new development concepts, designs, financial management and all of the budgets that go behind the work that we do, and ensuring feasibility and bringing things through as a project manager.
We have a skilled development management team on staff and we also – beyond the equity ownership projects that we do, we also manage projects on behalf of other nonprofit clients. It’s typically nonprofit groups that might not necessarily have the expertise or the capacity on their staff and board team but they might have property or to create new affordable housing units and manage them after the fact.
And that’s been a great niche for us to find projects that we can activate and move forward that maybe would have been dormant previously.
[0:09:36.7] GL: Yeah. Adrian, I find it really interesting that you know, well, how that aligns with your background because a lot of the challenges that I think I find out doing what I do is because, at Rental.ca, we produce a lot of reports where we kind of dictate what rents are going for across the country and provinces, municipalities, things like that and –
[0:09:52.5] AD: They’re fantastic, I use them on a daily basis to check in on different projects and properties so, those are awesome.
[0:09:56.8] GL: Yeah, thank you for that, appreciate that. But what we got a lot from the feedback is, you know, obviously, renters aren’t always happy with the price of rent and this seems like sometimes that they take that and they almost look towards landlords or developers as being almost on the other side of the coin where you know what? It’s prospecting renters who want the cheapest rents possible.
And then you have landlords and developers who are sitting on top of the mounting, looking down on them but really, I think what’s happening now is that we’re realizing that everyone’s kind of in this together and that to get out of the housing crisis we’re now, and to retain more affordability, we all kind of want the same thing, right? Developers and landlords wait to be able to produce affordable homes out of something that’s economically feasible.
And then offers those cheaper housing options for renters as well. So, I just think that having you being in that industry, coming into this, I think that’s just a really good thing to see and for listeners to understand as well, I think it’s just a perfect fit and I’m really excited to see that that’s kind of what brought you into this role.
[0:10:52.2] AD: Yeah, you got it. I think of the development industry as a conduit. Like, it represents the impact of policy and monetary and economic conditions in the communities that people develop and it’s not so, it’s great when you can find real estate developers in the private market who are committed to affordability and social impact. That’s a rare thing but it’s great when it happens.
We’re obligated as a charity in order to do that work, so it’s slightly different lines for us but you know, it is great to find those partners in the development community that are seriously passionate about it.
[0:11:23.0] GL: Yeah, and we touched on it a little bit and I think for some people clearly know what it is but there are some that maybe haven’t heard of your two Toque Campaign. So, maybe for those who don’t, who may have never seen one of these hats or heard about it, what is the Toque campaign? And maybe you can judge with that, what are some other campaigns that people might have heard about but they didn’t know it was associated with your organization?
[0:11:43.5] AD: Terrific, the Toque Campaign is, you know, a great symbol of what Raising the Roof is about. It’s an opportunity for Canadians to contribute to homelessness prevention. When you buy Toque, the money that we raise as an organization goes directly towards a lot of the projects that I’m talking about in terms of homelessness prevention, purchasing property, all of the costs associated with these expensive projects, and you know are to some extent, funded by our Toque Campaign, and it’s probably our best mechanism for the average Canadian tab and impact.
I’ll also add, as a shameless plug that they’re comfy and they’re very warm and we sell a lot of Toques in the wintertime. I’m not going to lie, it’s a nice sunny day where I am but I’m still sporting one today for this discussion.
[0:12:21.1] GL: They’re great hats.
[0:12:22.0] AD: Yeah, I can’t – you know, talk them up enough. We’ve had a lot of designs over 26 years but you know, maybe a little bit of bias here for me but I think that the designs that we got today are so cool and are typically on the cutting edge. We have new colours usually every couple of years. So, check them out, they’re on our website and now they’re on rentals.
So, it’s going to be a great opportunity for people to get a little more exposure to see it and to be able to contribute, it’s a very easy thing to do and quite frankly, you’ll end up with a sweet Toque at the end of the day.
[0:12:50.1] GL: Yeah, and it’s like the best type of branding where, “Where’d you get that hat?” You know? That’s kind of the word of mouth that I think that comes into play as well and that’s how I got mine, by seeing somebody wearing their Toque and I just like the logo and I just like how it looked, right?
[0:13:02.0] AD: Yeah.
[0:13:02.6] GL: “So, where’d you get that?” And then you go on the website and I think it kind of snowballs from there.
[0:13:05.6] AD: And it stands for a lot more. Like, the logo looking cool and the hat being comfortable and stuff, like that’s all great but if you see somebody wearing it, you realize you're like, “That person understands, they went to the website, they figured it out and this is a way that they’re contributing to homelessness and homelessness prevention in Canada.” It’s kind of like a little moment of you can recognize somebody and see what their principles are when you see them in public if they’ve got one if they’ve got one.
[0:13:26.1] GL: Yeah, a little badge of honour there. I like that.
[0:13:27.3] AD: Yeah.
[0:13:28.2] GL: Now, there’s other campaigns that you guys do as well like I think on the home page, it details the RESIDE camping. One of my favourites that I always kind of kept in line with but again, you guys are known for your campaigns. So maybe a little bit about the RESIDE reveal who don’t know.
[0:13:41.6] AD: Yeah, so, RESIDE is really the work that I do. It’s the real estate development arm of what we do. So, it’s all the work that we talked about in terms of finding new properties, bringing them forward and incorporating that trades training element into what we do and maybe I’ll hone in on that a little bit. You know, there’s this network of social enterprise groups across Canada.
And for people that aren’t familiar with social enterprise, it’s this is the idea that being a group that can contribute to somebody’s welfare through teaching and through doing and to actually running a business that provided a training ground is a great way to have an impact in the community and to get people the skills that they need to be successful in the long-term. So, when we talk about social enterprise contracting, these are groups that are very well equipped.
And I’m actually representing today, for all the people at home that can’t see my T-shirt but Community Builders is a group-based set of Barrie and sub-Barrie in Ontario that does a lot of this fantastic work. They have a warehouse where they facilitate these groups of trainees that come in, they have classroom learning, they have in-warehouse learning, they learn how to build a wall from framing, insulating.
Drywall, finishing, patching, painting, everything all the way in from the studs and then they actually have a chance to apply these skills in a real-life job site on our property, like on our properties and then our projects and so, it’s fantastic and like, even for somebody like me who has seen this happen a bunch of times, I still can’t believe the outcomes and like the feeling that you get when you meet with somebody who has gone through one of these training programs.
And you see their prospects for employment versus where they were when they started the training program. You need to have the right mindset to go into it and to take advantage of it and to be willing to learn but when people have that, that can go a long way and it’s, I think it’s almost 80% or more people that come out of these training programs that go on to long-term employment and construction and this is a big issue for developers and for people that are trying to target the, you know, housing crisis in Canada is that –
[0:15:28.0] GL: Yeah.
[0:15:28.2] AD: As much as investment and policy changes can be made into creating new affordable housing and driving the construction of new rental housing, a potential limiting factor in the future is the lack of skilled trade and opportunity for people to actually complete the construction is necessary to drive affordability in Canada in the next 10 years. So, in that sense, we’re trying to contribute to both fronts on a macroeconomic for, you know, policy basis.
But also, trying to just get the most social impact that we possibly can out of each one of these capital projects. That’s really the piece of it that is the foundational philosophy of the RESIDE program.
[0:15:59.5] GL: Yeah, it must be incredibly rewarding Adrian, to kind of see that and see the impact that’s made. Is this organization kind of like your first step into working with a charity or is it always something that kind of been on your radar because I’d imagine like doing something that really makes an impact like this has to be super rewarding for yourself and I imagine it brings in so many challenges but also just a lot is given to yourself just by putting yourself into these positions to help others.
[0:16:28.1] AD: Yeah. I mean, I have a history of limited volunteerism working with small organizations, mostly in Toronto when I was growing up but never as a career before and in terms of the work that I do, it’s always been private sector. When I always tell people is I love it because that people pick up my phone calls now. This isn’t a – I mean, it’s a range and generalization but I’m going to say it anyway.
So, when you go to a city, people are looking at the real estate developers like, “Like how can I wring as much money as I can out of this person while they go through the process of building in my community?” And you know, the tide is changing and now municipalities recognize the need to create housing and they are being a little bit more cooperative but for us, the best feeling is when we have that unified front with a city or with a province to go forward or the Federal government to go forward and really carry out the work that is recognized as being needed.
That is tremendously satisfying and I also say we don’t like to exploit the people that come out of returning programs. We don’t like to tell their stories too widely but when there is a trainee who is so interested and says like, “Hey, I want people to understand the power of this program.” And you got a chance to speak with them, it really puts into perspective the power of the program and how it can actually change somebody’s life.
And not even somebody's life but have generational outcomes for the people that they live with and that they will you know, their families in the future. Being able to go from a lack of employment to fully-employed in the trades, which is a terrific career choice for Canadians today is a very powerful transition and the people who are hiring at these companies that need new workers and new labour and in construction, they're so keen on these programs.
Because then, they have apprentices that are coming out that have a very established background and are well-respected for the training that they receive and they can jump right into the labour pool and get ready to work. So, that means a ton and it is great to see it and that’s really the fuel that drives our team is seeing the impact.
[0:18:15.2] GL: Well, I’d imagine the success stories that you have and you know, just testimonials are that are incredible and that’s what kind of keeps you guys going. So, that’s amazing to hear and am I right to assume that you know, some of the challenges that you guys faced is it a mix of labour or time or manpower or additional funds? You know, like what are some of the operational challenges that you guys go through on a day-to-day basis?
[0:18:37.6] AD: I’d say, the principal barrier preventing the development of new affordable housing in Canada and this is something that affects us but probably affects a lot of other people that are in our position is the lack of funding in order to make it work. You know, when you are paying a mortgage with that income from you know, properties that are just charging less rent, your mortgage is going to be smaller.
And it necessitates capital to come from somewhere else when you are going through a development project, particularly acquisitions and initial soft cost startup is the hardest thing to find for us. It is well-known in the fundraising community that it is easier to fundraise for something when you can point at it and say, “Here it is, here is a picture of the glorious building. It’s almost done, all the people are ready to move in.”
“We just need you know, however much money in order to get the project done.” People are going to jump on that like crazy because it’s a great opportunity to have an immediate impact and you can see it. Finding those patient investors that can participate in a development cycle that can sometimes be three to five years in length and not see those outcomes for a long period of time is difficult.
Not to mention the catch-22 of affordable housing is that in the communities where the need is most dramatic like Toronto and Vancouver and other metro highly urbanized populations we have in Canada, the cost of acquisition for property is obscene and to not mention carrying that property for however much time you need to in order to get your approval to move forward. Funding is the main thing that stops us from participating in the development cycle at the pace of private market developers.
But at the same time, it’s not bleak. There are lots of interesting organizations that are providing lending at competitive rates for organizations like us that are going above and beyond, you know, what is expected from a policy point of view for new affordability and energy efficiency and accessibility and all that stuff. So, we do have some tricks up our sleeve when it comes to finding capital but that is probably the biggest barrier.
I’d say, there is a lot of policy in Canada that could be reworked to make our jobs and to make these process easier and faster for everybody in Canada. The main things that I would point to and quite frankly, the federal government has done a good job of answering some of the communication that’s come from our sector, which you know, that I’ll reference the National Housing Headquarters has a great document that came out of a bunch of different nonprofits that spurred a lot of important federal policy changes in the last six to ten months.
But there’s always more that can be done in terms of streamlining the existing funding packages, you know finding those opportunities for investment at the right time, updating the building code, updating planning policy across, you know, all the municipalities is relevant and getting that intergovernmental communication going between cities, provinces and the federal government is crucial in order to get these projects moving quickly.
I know that’s a lot but those are the two main sectors I would say that need a bit of a tune-up is finding that funding early for projects like this and creating the policies that are necessary as a result of deep consultation with affordable housing developers. Those are the two things that need to happen in order to get us moving.
[0:21:25.2] GL: And sometimes it does come across as, for lack of a better term, a little bleak when you look at what’s happening in the housing market right now and the supply crisis we’re in but what I’d like to kind of hold my hat on it and maybe your opinion is different or the same but it does seem like especially the federal government or at least any policymakers, they are starting to listen.
We are starting to see they are trying to address what we’re going through right now in a way the federal government removed GST for developers who want to build purpose-built apartments, right? You know, you can turn on the TV right now and not hear them about trying to address it in some matter.
So, I try to always have a little bit of hope behind all of this of that you know, the work that we are all doing trying to make sure this issue is heard and seen, it does seem like we’re starting to see that kind of come into fruition a little bit, which does give me hope. I would hope and this sounds like you kind of shared that same sentiment as well.
[0:22:17.4] AD: You got to have hope, otherwise it’s too bleak out there. So, it’s really important and I think the most recent federal budget was very interesting from a perspective of a real estate developer and those who are concerned about housing in our communities. A lot of those changes aren’t going to come into effect for 12 or 18 months but still great policy updates and some interesting funding packages that are more targeted to the kind of work that we do.
You know, I do think that it represents a change in direction for the federal government when the past Trudeau government was saying things like, “Housing is not the concern of the federal level. It is the province and the cities that need to figure that out.” I think you know, I’m hopeful that some of the recent policy and funding updates are reflective of a change of position there, recognizing that regardless of who’s jurisdictional right it is, and responsibility, do you really want to be the leader of a country that is in such a desperate crisis?
I think that is, I hope, the nature of the thinking that they’re doing when they are creating the new budgets.
[0:23:12.6] GL: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more and maybe to kind of keep the momentum going and so, how can individuals or businesses or communities or everyday person kind of get involved with any of the programs that you guys are doing, especially it seems like the Toque campaign that always seems to be in the forefront of things but how do people get involved? How do people see what you guys are doing and ultimately make that purchase and kind of form a connection with you guys?
[0:23:37.9] AD: Two answers for you. An easy one? Yes, buy a Toque. It’s a great way to support us financially and to see our – if you're keen on our projects, if you like what we’ve been talking about today and you want to see us go further, that’s a really easy way to make a contribution and then at the same time, you get to show it off and look great next time it’s snowing outside.
And also, I think, more powerful than any of the work that we can do here as an organization, in addition to the homelessness prevention, the direct work that we do through the RESIDE program, Raising the Roof is still an advocacy organization and a research organization and really, in order to have the impact that’s necessary to change the state of housing in our communities and in Canada, it needs to change the mindset of the individual in Canada.
In order to be able to find you know, support for the policies that we need to see put in place, in order to find the support for the people that need to be locked in, in order to do this work. People need to become concerned about the issues in our communities like homelessness and doing a bit of research, checking out our website, seeing what might affect your community, and seeing how you can get involved from a –
You know, just when you vote is a very easy thing to do, finding those parties at all levels of municipal politics, provincial politics and federal politics that are going to support new housing delivery and the appropriate policies is a great way to start and just being concerned and generally having compassion for the people in your communities that might be experiencing homelessness is something else.
You know, whenever safe, have an opportunity to talk to somebody that’s down on their luck, share If you can, hear about their experience, it goes a really long way for people that are having a hard time.
[0:25:13.9] GL: Absolutely. Those small acts of kindness, they always seem to have a ripple effect in some ways. So, I really appreciate that and we will make sure to link everything in our show notes so people can be one click from seeing everything that you guys do and I know from Rentals.ca side, it’s really easy to partner with a company that has great people but it’s even easier when they’re making huge differences in the communities that we all live in.
So, we’re really excited for this and we’re really excited that you had the opportunity to come on and say some of the great things that you guys are doing. So, I really appreciate your time Adrian, and I look forward to seeing how this partnership goes throughout the future because we like this to be a long-term relationship and I think it’s going to do a lot of good for people.
[0:25:49.7] AD: Absolutely. Thank you for having me today and always happy to talk more about the progress in the future.
[0:25:54.9] GL: You got it. Well, I’d love to have you on again. So, everybody, thank you all for listening, make sure you rate and review the podcast wherever you listen. Until next time.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:26:02.9] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Sync or Swim, brought to you by Rentsync. If you enjoyed today’s show, make sure to visit www.rentsync.com/podcast, for detailed show notes, key takeaways, and more. Thanks for listening. Brought to you by Rentsync.
[END]