“CL: Any one of us, we've gone and shopped. By the time you see four or five, six suites, you can't even remember what you've seen. It's really important that it be tailored leasing experience. Follow up. Follow-up works. We drill that into our team’s heads, and we know they know how important it is. It does convert. It makes that person feel special. We haven't forgotten about them. It's the personal touch and it's bringing the best of the service sector, the high-end hotels, or any hospitality and making sure that it's reflective and it's genuine in our community.”
[0:00:34] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to another episode of Sync or Swim, brought to you by Rentsync. From operational challenges to marketing mastery, we uncover the strategies and technologies and all things prop tech. Let's dive in as we explore the trends, tactics, and insights that define the future of multifamily investments. Sync or Swim starts now.
[0:00:58] MS: In the spirit of trying to keep things efficient, I'm going to introduce our three guest panelists, and they're all happy to be Rentsync clients. Hopefully, happy ones. We have a long-standing relationship with all three of these companies. Todd and I got to know each other a little more recently, but Chrystal and Michelle and I go way back. It's awesome to be up here sharing the stage with you guys.
Let's start with Todd. In no particular order, but Todd is the Director of Operations for Park Property. He's leading a team that oversees 11,200 residential units in 92 buildings across Ontario. Todd is an experienced executive leader and a coach. He has a background in media, which I think is really interesting, communications, and also, real estate. He's worked actually in senior leadership roles with the likes of CNN, with CBC. Then he forayed into the multifamily industry under GWL Realty Advisors and served on a variety of boards, including academic advisory boards, a community arena board, and with FERPA, who we all know and love.
He's super passionate about serving his community and the future of our cities. I do think something that he really brings to this panel that's super unique is his media experience and the viewpoint and lens that he sees rental housing through because that's a very unique thing for our industry. Not a lot of us come from that media background. Round of applause for Todd. Thanks for joining us.
Next up, Chrystal. Chrystal LeBlanc. She has 15 years of experience working in strategic marketing with 12 years of direct experience in now multi-residential and commercial and commercial real estate. She oversees 45 rental communities across Canada and has successfully led the marketing and leasing now of 14 new development projects in major Canadian markets, really almost coast to coast, including Victoria, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto, and Montreal. I think something that Chrystal brings that's super unique to this panel is the specific marketing experience, which obviously is highly related to a lot of the topics we're going to talk about. There are a few people in this industry with that length of time and purpose-built rental marketing, because we didn't really start doing it until about 10 years ago. Welcome, Chrystal, and thanks for joining us.
Last but not least, my friend, Michelle Calloway, currently the VP of Operations at Fitzrovia. Michelle has well over a decade of experience working in multifamily in both Canada and the US. You started your management career with Pinnacle out of the US. For those of you who don't know, one of the largest operators there. I think, over a couple hundred thousand units to put that in scale. We have nothing like that here. Now joined, obviously, Fitzrovia after a few stints in other Canadian multifamily management companies. Fitzrovia has for sure been one of the most dynamic and industry-changing companies and leaders in Canada in what feels like a very short period of time. Just in a few short years, they've amassed a portfolio now of and a pipeline that includes 8,800 units. Mostly this is all new stock. Super impressive and I'm sure Michelle is a huge part of that and the operations side.
I think something that you bring to the table is that US-Canada experience because the US market was so far ahead of the Canadian market for so long. I know we've had a lot of conversations about that. But thank you so much for joining us, Michelle, and we look forward to it.
Maybe just before jumping into the meat of the discussion, I'm hoping that you guys can provide a little bit more context on the types of purpose-built rentals and new construction projects that are currently being, or going through your pipeline at each of your respective companies. I think that will help the audience get a better idea of some of the viewpoint behind some of the questions that are to come. We'll just go down the line on this one and maybe start with Michelle.
[0:05:15] MC: Sure. We just began leasing a recent product called The Elm, just 542 suites in the city, as well as just launched the pre-leasing for Sloan, which is near Yorkdale for another 760 suites. We're really focusing right now on two and three-bedroom rentals for downsizers and young families as well.
[0:05:35] CL: At BGO, I'm focusing specifically for the purposes of this presentation, on our GTA portfolio, we currently have four active new developments totalling around 1,000 suites, both in the downtown four Mississauga and New Market as well. We have over 14,000 residential suites in the pipeline within the Toronto four and we've got a master plan community as well in Vaugn. Dependent on the location, we're really focused on downsizers, having suites that accommodate their needs, working professionals, students, dependent on the specific market that we're in. Our product that we're bringing to market, we do both third-party and we also develop and own.
It's elevated, amenity-rich. In some of the most recent projects, there are affordability components. And then, when it's a mixed-use community, we're very focused on lifestyle-rich amenities retailers that we can complement the community with.
[0:06:37] TS: Sure. Yeah, at Property, we've got three developments actively going right now. One each will roll out in 2025, 2026, 2027. One at Pharmacy, 2026 will be in Mississauga. The third will be at Yonge-Eglinton. These are all on existing lands. We're developing adjacent to legacy towers, which is part of the play. There should be multiple new developments rolling out after that as well as we green light more. There are plans for more. We're in mid-range, really well thought out, well appointed, but usually high-end, and pretty happy to stay in that place.
[0:07:14] MS: I think that's a really important distinction about Park and is quite unique today to build new purpose-built rentals in the GTA that are not necessarily upmarket, elevated as you mentioned. I think that's going to add some interest to this discussion. Yeah, because I would say, Michelle, would you agree as well that Fitzrovia is definitely more of an elevated product, especially in the GTA, right?
[0:07:41] MC: Yeah, I agree. Todd and I have spoken about this and there's a need for both. It is unique. We're all really looking at twos and threes in the saturation of ones hitting the market, but not everybody can afford the luxury offering. There's a need for both, for sure.
[0:07:53] TS: Yeah. I think all of the new development matters. As was alluded to before lunch, there is pent-up demand for luxury and high-end as well. When people move out of existing into those places, it opens up room further downstream, which is why it all matters.
[0:08:09] MS: Agreed. We'll start to talk a little bit about the market. I mean, we had a pretty data-intensive morning, a data, political intensive morning until Ali gave us a nice break from that. We heard a lot about the market in terms of numbers. I'm really interested. I'm sure people here are interested to just hear more anecdotally, is that the same story? Is that story jiving with what you're seeing in Toronto? If not, what are the nuances, or differences? I'd love to hear from everyone on this particular question. Yeah, Michelle, you want to kick things off there?
[0:08:43] MC: Yeah, sure. We have seen a noticeable drop off in certain areas, specifically with foreign students. Yeah, spoken about a few times today. We're definitely feeling the impact on our side. We also have seen – we started discussing the cycle of students. What we're seeing is some abnormalities. We had always assumed that it was very standardized. We're starting to see them fluctuate throughout the year, which is different.
[0:09:06] CL: Just to add different perspective, there's been a lot of conversation around the over-supply of condos. We're certainly feeling that, and what it's doing, it's putting pressure on the rents, right? Downward pressure on the rents, because of the supply. We are hearing that it will stabilize, come Q3, Q4 next year. We are experiencing that and needing to adjust, keep our eye on the market and ensure that our rents are in line as well with the market. There's also been conversation around moving out of the city. We have experienced that. Anytime somebody, a resident moves out of our community, we track the reasons for move out.
We have seen that 20% of our turnover, I'm speaking specifically again to the GTA, is as a result of relocating out of the city. In some instances, it may be tied to employment, but we've got a separate reason for move out that is specific to employment. This one here is more isolated to looking for larger suites at potentially more affordable rates or wanting to be outside the city centre traffic. There's a lot of traffic in the city. I'd say, the over-supply of condos is certainly impacting us. Then we are seeing residents move outside of the city.
[0:10:17] TS: Yeah, just the turnover obviously is an issue. Not where it once was. We also have to up our game on the sales piece, because of the dumping of condo product. We need to be better at saying why purpose-built rental is different. We think about our residents, we all do 24/7, versus the secondary market. We need to work harder in the sales pitch to highlight what that means, that our service levels are higher. Our systems are better and all of those types of things. We have things like building stack with residents. We need to really up that game. Whereas, we didn't necessarily do that before because the condos, people are willing to take a loss on those right now. To close that gap, it's hard, but we have to work harder to do that.
[0:11:01] MS: I think even on that note, not just what differentiates purpose-built product, but also the protections that a renter has by being in a purpose-built product, versus being under a one-off landlord, and that re-education piece is another collective effort for sure.
[0:11:17] TS: I think we should call that out and use it to our advantage. We can actually tell people that they can stay as long as they like. The law enables that, but it is true. We know in the secondary market, we hear about the horror stories of people being rent evicted, or family evicted, or whatever. I do think we should highlight that and hit it on the nose.
[0:11:36] MS: I agree. Moving along, I actually want to touch, Michelle, on something that you had mentioned as well, which is the foreign student issue now. All three of you have properties in the downtown core near major universities and colleges. Michelle, I know you spoke about this. I'd like you to expand a little bit on what you're seeing there. Did it just start? Have you seen this for a little while? What's going on?
[0:12:00] MC: Yeah, we can chat about that. With the Waverley release specifically, although it's not technically student housing, it's 95% students, we were very lucky with the proximity to the universities that it naturally filled in year one and two. It was the newest hottest commodity, right? We started to see that waitlist dwindle down and drop off. We don't have a vacancy crisis by any means, but folks that were literally knocking on the door waiting to get in prior aren't there any longer.
What's unique is we're starting to see some of those students trickle over to our newer product [inaudible 0:12:30]. Those are some of the off cycles we're talking about, but it's not where we need it to be. Yeah.
[0:12:36] MS: Interesting. Yeah, I think it may be from what I'm hearing as well, just the beginning of quite a few Toronto-based landlords. It doesn't have to be student-specific rentals starting to feel that crunch a little bit. I'd like to get into, so that's more at the market level, what you guys are experiencing. In terms of renter preferences, David did a great job explaining how renter preferences are changing and some of the data behind that. Again, does that jive? Are you guys seeing the same sorts of things? How is the consumer different today than in the past? I don't even want to define that. It could be six months ago. It could be 24 months ago, but it could be 10 years ago. What are you noticing now that's different?
[0:13:20] CL: I think one thing that we're noticing is that the consumers vary in forms. They like the stability of purpose-built rental. They're aware of rent control versus not rent controlled. We often get asked that question. Are you rent-controlled? What does that mean for me on year two? They're shopping around. No prospect is coming in the door and looking at only our community. The level of service, I like to say, you can spend all the money on marketing in the world, but if you don't step in that front door and have a consistent experience with what you see, like Ali said online, it can fall flat really quickly. Or if you're not responsive in terms of getting back to that prospect right away and scheduling an appointment, they're shopping around. They're doing their due diligence.
It's a really informed consumer and not just prospects, residents as well. Residents are doing their research when it comes time for renewal, especially, and I'm speaking more so to the non-rent-controlled communities. It's all market-specific and target renter-specific. What we're finding in the downtown nodes, and this has been speaking with our development team, we're speaking to the two and three-bedrooms and there's demand for that for all the reasons that were spoken about today. We're finding that dens. In the past, there was no added value for a den, but the one plus den, the idea of having the dedicated work-from-home space. The added flexibility, if you're growing your family, not ideal. But in this particular market, it does allow you that added space, even for an interim.
We're finding that there's added value on dens, which is really interesting. Then I'll speak to, you heard earlier about divorcees, specifically noted. We have a community in new market, and it attracts a lot of downsizers. They're downsizing from three, four, 5,000 square foot homes. They want large space. They want certainty, security of tenure. Then a lot of divorcees who want the school district, want space for their child or children to come to spend time with them. Those are just a few things that we've observed.
[0:15:20] MS: I want to come back to a couple of those things. Though, maybe you guys will answer it in this upcoming question. I guess, it's the million-dollar question, but what are the changes you're making at either the product level? Obviously, those are more future changes to account for it, but maybe even more immediate changes you're making at the customer service level to account for some of those preference changes. Todd?
[0:15:48] TS: I think that's a lot of what Chrystal talked about is what everyone needs to do more of. I would say on the customer service front, is generally in society, we all have an expectation for exceptional customer service. Sometimes walking into purpose-built legacy rental that was built in the 60s or 70s, it doesn't feel like we're on top of that. Great customer services backed up by exceptional technology and technology that just works. Amazon really should be the bar. It's really easy. It works. Too often, in our buildings, we haven't delivered on that for a variety of reasons. Some residents don't want to engage and pay electronically or whatever, or do maintenance requests online, but we have to actually put those things in place and manage for what we know the future customer base is going to look like. That customer service piece, if we can do that, we can have more time for our employees to be great at customer service and less time fiddling around with pieces of paper.
[0:16:44] MS: Maybe I'll go to you, Michelle, but I know Fitzrovia invests a ton into that customer service experience, especially in the leasing process. Do you want to expand on that at all? Are there any specific unique things that Fitzrovia is doing in particular?
[0:17:00] MC: Yeah, definitely. There's a few items that I really advocate for and it's getting back to the basics of customer service. Being readily available, there's missed revenue opportunities. For example, if the three of us were to go tour some assets, it's very unlikely we could get a tour, or an appointment just walking in. Folks aren't just generally available any longer and that's become really difficult. I know that sounds very basic, but we need to start there, and then just receiving feedback and implementing change regularly.
Rethinking outside the box, changing the amenities we talked about, the twos and the threes, but what about the amenities that go along with those? The proper playrooms, a zone for the parents to lounge as well, and maybe they can see their children. Things like those.
[0:17:42] MS: Yeah, you guys are doing definitely some of the most interesting amenities that we're seeing out there. Maybe we'll loop back to this now, but and this may just be a consensus, but the concept of renters shopping around in downtown Toronto is new in the sense that the market was so hot at one point, people were making almost hasty, quick decisions, trying to just lock down a place, maybe even bidding up, especially with when realtors get involved and whatnot. Is there anything you're doing now to try to stop some of that shopping? Are you trying to close the deal faster? Are there any techniques, or ways that maybe even you're using technology in order to shorten that close the deal time?
[0:18:31] MC: It's not so much closing the deal, but really relating to the prospect. What are they looking for? What type of lease length are they looking for? Am I flexible as a landlord and working with them? They will have certainty of their rent that's upcoming, but I also have a guarantee that they're going to stay longer in some instances. Minding of those expiries. The close is simple. The associates are trained. They just need to ask for it. That's the hardest thing to do. It's uncomfortable for some, and just being human, right?
[0:18:58] CL: I'd say, having leasing team members that are really passionate about your communities and know the value. We came to market a few years back and we were launching a purpose-built rental beside a purpose-built rental, and they’re both great products. We had to ask ourselves, what truly makes us different, right? How do we ensure that if a prospect walks in the door and it's a lot of us, really great job on the end suites, especially for the brand-new product. It's the community. It's the relationship with the leasing consultant. It's really believing in your product and being able to differentiate.
What I always say is we don't have 500 suites. When a prospect walks in the door, we have three suites for you based on your budget, your family, what's important to you, showing suites that are really right for that prospect. I think any one of us, if we've gone and shopped by the time you see four or five, six suites, you can't even remember what you've seen. It's really important that it be tailored leasing experience. Follow-up, follow-up works. We drill that into our team’s heads, and we know they know how important it is. It does convert. It makes that person feel special. We haven't forgot about them. It's the personal touch and it's bringing the best of the service sector, the high-end hotels, or any hospitality and making sure that it's reflective and it's genuine in our communities.
[0:20:23] TS: I would just add to that, you alluded to the hotel piece, and I think we can learn a lot from that. That exceptional goes back to customer service. Great discovery, understanding your prospect and limiting the options, and not just saying, have a look around and let us know if you're interested. We need to do excellent discovery and understand a person's life circumstances and really try to target what it is that they're looking for and speak to that.
[0:20:46] CL: I think, just one more thing to add, you have to know the neighbouring product. You can't be completely out of touch with the product that's fairly similar across the street. For us, we are incredibly mindful of the market. We're on top of the market. We have conversations. We have relationships with a lot of the different property management companies as well. It's open and transparent conversations and touring assets as well. It doesn't set us back in any way. I think it makes us all better.
[0:21:12] MS: Yeah, these three actually were chatting about, even though they're competitors, they were nice enough to let each other tour each other's buildings and they have that cooperation, or co-opetition is the word, mentality. That's nice to see. Let's pivot a little bit. I want to get into a bit of a different topic, home ownership versus renting. According to CMHC, we're actually up now to 42% of new multifamily construction is purpose-built rentals. That's a little bit because condos have definitely fallen off as we've heard. The data there is actually probably pretty delayed because that's the 2023 data. I'm almost certain that that's going to be well above 50% when the new report comes out.
The homeownership rate in Canada at the same time has actually been falling. It's steadily been declining over the last decade. We used to have one of the highest homeownership rates in the G20 countries. We're starting to fall down that list a little bit. For the first time, a home buyer, as I had mentioned, the first-time home buyer is almost non-existent right now. The percentage of sales that is occurring in the market to the first-time home buyer is at an all-time low.
Do you guys think that this trend is primarily being driven by home ownership affordability? Or do you also think, and it doesn't have to be one or the other, but I'd love to just hear what you're seeing and hearing, it’s also being driven by lifestyle choices? Chrystal, did you want to kick this one off?
[0:22:47] CL: Sure. My perspective is that it's both. BGO is currently advising five condo developers on converting to purpose-built. We're seeing that there's lower demand for condos, higher demand for purpose-built. We're seeing it. We're working with developers. When we look at our reasons for move out, I had to peek at the data across this past year, but 8% move out for home ownership. We don't see a huge spike. I wouldn't say that that really swings dramatically one way or another. I think in terms of what we're hearing from renters, when prospects are coming through the front door, many of the products that I'm speaking to today, we do have legacy assets as well across the portfolio and speaking specifically to the GTA and more of our new developments.
Renters aren't saying that they want to rent, or they're renting, even though they want to own a condo or a home. They're excited about the rental. They want to rent at this point in their life, because it serves them really well. They want purpose-built because they want the security of tenure. They want the professional on-site management. We're educating on these throughout the tour as well, but they see value and they see benefit in this. We look at, we have access as well to large US studies and what they say is even those renters who choose to rent, they have aspirations of home ownership, but it may not be for five years. In the interim, they're very content and they're proud to rent and they're happy to be in one of our communities.
[0:24:14] MS: I think that's a nice story to hear, just because I think it often is assumed, I would say, that renters only rent because they can't own, due to affordability. I think one of the reasons for that is that we've had this build-up and it's something that Brad Bradford touched on just briefly, I think we can go maybe a little deeper as well on this, this build-up of stigma around renting in general. I had a conversation probably three or four months ago with Todd about this, just over Zoom. This is much nicer to be in person. He very eloquently talked about why he thinks that is, which I think to understand that helps us maybe solve for it long term. Would love to turn it over to you on that, so that you can share what you shared with me.
[0:25:03] TS: I can't promise the same level of elegance, or eloquence, rather. No, I think it's a heavily stigmatized industry in Canada renting. I think it's something that we all need to work to change. I think that Canada needs to grow up and I think its major cities needs to grow up, because if we want to be recognized as world cities, we need to behave like world cities. In the rest of the world, renting is not a stigmatized activity. It's actually the dominant housing ecosystem in most major cities in the world. I've lived abroad and nobody stigmatized me for renting for eight years, and it just doesn't happen.
I think we do this to ourselves. We talk about, “Oh, it's sad. People don't want to buy houses.” People are choosing to rent. I have kids. One is 21 and one is 18. They don't have an expectation that we used to own a house. I do think historically, I think the banks had a lot to do with this. They decided to take a piece of that rent and say, own a home. We built this narrative around success in Canada is about owning a home. The other thing that has changed for young people is they're not going to stay in the same jobs for 35 years. You set it and forget it. You buy the house near the job and then you do that.
Today, people are moving through jobs at a much more rapid pace, which means they need to be able to move more easily and renting enables that as well. I think that's part of it as well. I do, as I said, I think in our country, we need to be better at recognizing that renting is a choice. I think that all of us are doing a great job at introducing great product and raising our game to make it akin to what it is like in the rest of the world.
[0:26:43] MS: I got to ask you, though, since you have that media background, what role do you feel media plays in that?
[0:26:50] CL: Media plays a huge role in this, Max. Unfortunately, they come preloaded with an anti-landlord, anti-development narrative. It was, too, earlier today, developers or many people in this room are laying out hundreds of millions of dollars, taking huge risk to build homes for Canadians, and that doesn't get properly recognized. It's been happening for a century in this country. People have been renting and that has led into home ownership. To mutually exclude those two isn’t really fair. I do think, and listen, I'm sympathetic to the media, because jobs have been cut there as well. People don't have the time. They do come with a preloaded narrative.
That means we need to work harder to actually get our story out. We're fortunate, Daryl is here today from GTA and FERPA at organizations that are working to do that. I think we collectively also have to combat that as well. I think we do it in making it a great experience, because the way that – I told you this before. A few years ago, I played word association with my kids. I said, I say landlord, what do you say? One said crime lord and one said drug lord. We probably need to stop using the word landlord. Lord of the land doesn't actually engender us to people. I think we need to do a better job right across the board at changing the way we talk about ourselves. We are providing homes for Canadians and we're doing a great job at it.
[0:28:11] MS: I also think as vendors in the space, we're actually trying to combat this as well now. Rentals I see as probably is, it's not probably the most quoted rent report in the media across the country and in every market. Sometimes it's quite frustrating because it'll be quoted and just headlines without any contacts that really demonize landlords. We've taken some heat for that, believe me, from certain apartment associations across the country. What we're doing now is building out a media team, a multi-person media team, not just one or two people, but an entire team of four right now, who all are in contact with the media and are retraining them and we're holding media sessions and we're trying to bridge the gap between journalists and data, so that they fully understand and are buying and we're almost treating them like clients in a sense. We take on some of that responsibility and we'll continue to try to strive towards that.
I want to turn it over to you, Michelle. What is Fitzrovia doing? Let's stick on de-stigmatization for a second. If anything, that's different, even from a marketing perspective, to try to tackle the de-stigmatization around renting.
[0:29:24] MC: Yeah, definitely. We're really trying to focus, starts at the beginning with the design, and then all the way through the management, and then the end with the marketing component showcasing all of these details that we've put in. We're really heavy on details and the people. I think, we didn't mention this earlier, but I thought about it as I heard Todd speak is being the new kid on the block, our assets are only a couple years old and the most rewarding thing that started to happen is people who may be turned over to get a concession in their second year after lease are now starting to return. That's because of that community that we've built, and again, showcasing that community and sharing with other industry leaders ideas. I saw some competitors post some stuff on social today and they said, “That's a great idea.” When we all share that together and we make that, it's more normalized, that’s really rewarding.
[0:30:11] MS: I think naturally as well, the phenomenal branding that you're bringing to the space and the amount that you guys are investing in branding at the corporate level and also the building level naturally helps de-stigmatize that, just because it's so elevated that it's something people want to be associated with, versus lord of the land.
[0:30:29] CL: Just one quick thing. I think it's changing the language, like we would never use tenants. We use residents. We don't use units. We use suites. You walk into our offices, they're very intentional welcoming spaces and it's our resident services office, because we want to service the residents. Then that's also ingrained in our teams and that's the way they approach, speaking to our residents. It comes down a lot to the service level and not just serving rent increases. That's when they communicate with you at building that relationship well in advance.
[0:31:00] TS: That's a great point. I think it relates to providing dignity for renters, which is part of changing that narrative. I think that sometimes that was absent in the past, because we thought about people as, well, they're just here until they can afford a home. I think that by doing things like that and referring to people’s – doing those things, it all add up to creating a dignified experience, which again, technology supports that as well. Our residents should be able to make a maintenance request at three in the morning because that's when it works for them and they should be able to do it on a mobile device and it should be super easy to do. Helping to make the whole experience dignified is really important.
[0:31:37] MS: I think those are great insights and even some really practical tips, especially Chrystal, even just around language, things that you can take back and perhaps, make changes from right away. Let's pivot a little bit away from de-stigmatization. Let's move into talking about Toronto a little bit. Home prices have gotten flat in Toronto over the last couple of years. Rents are now down year over year, quite a bit, almost double digits. Demand for living in the core is currently down. We heard Brad, though Brad is a politician, talk about how he believes in the promise of Toronto still, but some of those key pillars that we need to focus on.
I guess, I just want to ask you guys. Do you still believe in the promise of Toronto? Do you think this is just a moment in time, or experiencing some dampened demand, or are we still optimistic? I think everybody needs to answer this.
[0:32:30] CL: I feel like, I'm an eternal optimist always. But surprisingly, I am a strong believer in the downtown core. We as BGO are strong believers. We have 14,000 suites coming down the pipeline, our development pipeline with a lot of incredible communities. One thing I've learned across my time in this industry is it's dynamic. There are some ebbs and flows and it keeps us on our toes. It ensures that we remain competitive. I think we are absolutely impacted by the oversupply, historical oversupply of condos. That's going to go away, Q3, Q4 next year. We're really optimistic that we're going to see things improve alongside that timeline.
I mean, I live in Toronto. I love the city for all. Commute. The amenity is close to work. Most employers are returning to the office at three, four days a week. I think for all of the reasons, Toronto has always been a great place to live. It will continue to be a great place to live.
[0:33:26] MS: Anyone want to add to this?
[0:33:27] MC: Yeah, we had a good laugh about this, because I had a few Toronto-born and raised folks. I'm not from here. I moved to Canada 10 years ago. I've been on Toronto. I moved from Alberta to Toronto with my family, and I strongly believe that it's going to bounce back. I wouldn't have moved here. It's funny. I talked to people who were born and raised, we talked about transit isn't where it should be. I said, in California, we had the worst transit – that was not – I'm a firm believer and that's why I'm here today.
[0:33:55] TS: Yeah, I am too. I love the city. I love the region. I came back to the country deliberately 20 years ago, because I love it so much. I do think it hinges on transit in a big way. I think we're, to paraphrase about a Toronto Raptors draft pick a few years ago, I think we're 10 years away from being 10 years away on transit, but we're getting there. It's going to be ugly for a little while. The city's a mess because of it, but it has to happen. I live in Brad's area and we have a subway line that largely serves single-family homes, running along the Danforth, which is insane. I'm very close to the main and Danforth development that he's really been taking a lead on. I live in a single-family home and I'm happy it's there. We need more infrastructure and more development.
[0:34:40] MS: I agree. Love the Bruno Caboclo reference.
[0:34:43] TS: Nice. You got it. Yeah.
[0:34:45] MS: We have to go to the Raptors games sometime. Didn’t know you were a fan. Okay. Well, that's optimistic. I'm happy that you guys feel that way. Michelle, I'm happy that you're staying. Moving on. We don't have a ton of time and we got to stop falling further and further behind today. We'll move in a couple wrap-up questions. What are some of the unexpected lessons that you guys have learned in your positions and your experience working within purpose-built rentals? There's a lot of people in this room who don't have 10, 15 years’ experience and probably, look at you guys as mentors and people that they really look up to. Would love to hear from all you guys.
[0:35:24] MC: She touched on it earlier and we were talking about it backstage, but I firmly believe that we need to be better at sharing insights with each other in the industry. I invite everybody to come tour my assets not because they're new and they're shiny, but I want to hear what you're doing, too. I think that's going to raise us up altogether. That was unusual for me when I moved to Canada. Actually, everything was very secretive 10 years ago when I moved to Alberta. Slowly, we've been undoing this and that's exciting for me. But we need to do a bit better, I think.
[0:35:53] CL: I echo that. I would say, remember this time last year, like November, December, and I felt things really started to grind to a halt from a leasing perspective and we were like, what is going on? We reached out to industry peers. All of the industry peers were saying, yeah, we're experiencing very similar things. The reality is our industry, it is dynamic. We need to observe. We need to listen. We need to adapt, but we need to communicate as well.
[0:36:21] TS: Yeah, I would agree with that. A rising tide floats all boats and it's good. It's a great industry in that sense. I think my lesson in both having worked now for two companies is, do the basics in development really, really well. Get those things right. Make them safe. Make sure they're clean and the customer experience is exceptional. We did a lot of probably amenities that were harder to run long-term and that comes off the back, eventually, of the residents. I like where we're at at Park in terms of really doing the basics well and that works. Again, there's room for everything in the space, right? It's good to do all of it and it all matters.
[0:37:01] MS: I think the co-opetition, again, back to that, is really unique about our industry and you see these unbelievably strong apartment associations at different levels. It lends back to this morning's point, which is we are fighting a new battle now, which isn't just, hey, come see my apartment, fall in love with the building, fall in love with the amenities, and hopefully, the unit. It's like, we're now having to work together to advocate for government, but also advocate to renters around the entire idea of renting, around the entire idea of staying in Toronto or moving to Toronto.
We have that collective responsibility, so it's nice to see the three of you working really well together. That's really interesting advice, I'd say, for young people in their careers as well, because sometimes it's a bit of like, an every man for yourself, or every woman for themselves mentality out there, right?
[0:37:58] CL: Sorry, one other really quick thing. We didn't touch up too much, I don't feel on retention, but for any of us that have the non-rent-controlled communities, I feel like retention is, and I'm seeing the opposite, it's so important, right? The turnover, I think many of us experienced higher turnover than we had anticipated and the market change, right? Residents signed leases at higher rates, because the market was so hot and there wasn't the level of supply that there are, and then needing to retain these amazing residents. That's where the sense of community, and I like to use the term stickiness, creating the stickiness, right? Because there are beautiful communities just down the street offering deep incentives and potential to pull your residents over. I think something as well that's a more recent learning, or just something that we're really paying particular attention to is retention. Yeah, retention side of things.
[0:38:54] MC: And the technology that goes with it needs improvement. Everybody’s working on that.
[0:39:00] MS: I'm glad you guys brought that up. I mean, I think it's true that you can do all those other things phenomenally well. We can all advocate. We could try to drive more renters into Toronto and be great at marketing and leasing. But if you have a leaky bucket, you're not going to win the battle, right? Great point. Thanks for bringing it up.
We have time for one last question. Let's just say, we're ending on a bit of a lighter note with it, but just what's the most rewarding thing to you for being in this industry, being in rental housing in general in your career right now?
[0:39:30] CL: I think for me, and I always try to bring myself back to this is we are creating and managing homes that our residents are proud to come home to. When you think about it, these are people's homes. I think it's pretty incredible to be able to have a great impact or make someone smile at the end of the day when they walk into the lobby and create with one of our team members. It's simple, but I feel really grateful that I have an impact on something that's really so important.
[0:39:58] TS: I would say the same. It's a privilege. We estimate about 25,000 humans live in our buildings, and amazing stories happen every day. Babies are born and people move in together for the first time. People arrive in this country for the first time and thinking about it in a context. I love the business for that reason, privilege to be in it to provide for Canadians.
[0:40:20] MC: I’m going to change gears, although I agree wholeheartedly. I'm really excited about raising the next industry leaders. I was talking to several people in the crowd and Todd on the side about colleagues that I've worked with that have worked with companies that you work with. I said, “Oh, yeah. That person. I hope she takes my job.” That excites me. I think part of that is the industry is changing since I joined 10 years ago. That also excites me. We still have a long way to go. We're not there yet, but I can't wait to see where we go.
[0:40:48] TS: Yeah, it's a really kind industry. Michelle and I were chatting about some people we both worked with. I was checking in and it was great to hear her say that that she hopes this person has her job. It's great to see that. It's a very positive industry in that sense.
[0:41:02] MS: Well, that's a great insight from all three panellists today. Let's give them a really warm round of applause. Thank you so much guys for joining us.
[END OF EPISODE]
[0:41:15] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Sync or Swim, brought to you by Rentsync. If you enjoyed today's show, make sure to visit www.rentsync.com/podcast for detailed show notes, key takeaways, and more. Thanks for listening.