E59: The Value of Data and Renter Personas in Multifamily Marketing

“I like to remind folks that brand building takes time. It's not easy, it takes a sustained effort over a prolonged period of time to create that repetition.” — Chris Willoughby

Data is the lifeblood of marketing and can help power your marketing programs, or so our guest today believes! Chris Willoughby, Vice President of Marketing for InterRent Real Estate Investment Trust, headquartered in Ottawa, Canada. Chris specializes in residential real estate, and owns, and operates nearly 13,000 suites across Canada. As listeners tune in they’ll hear from Chris about how he has been educating property managers about the importance of marketing, how to decide what marketing channels to use, and why in addition to focusing on quantity, you need to also hone in on quality. He reiterates why it’s crucial to collect data to measure things and know where you are spending your dollars. Don’t miss out on all this and more!
 

Key Points From This Episode:

• What led Chris to the rental housing industry and what differentiates his skillset from others.
• How Chris has been educating property managers about the importance of marketing.
• Chris’s thoughts on the challenges presented in marketing attribution.
• How to decide what marketing channels to use.
• The importance of focusing on quality in addition to quantity.
• How Chris views using social media as a marketing channel.
• How the rental demand being down affects his marketing strategies.
• Why it’s important to be able to measure things and know how you are spending your dollars.
• The importance of building a strong brand that resonates with potential renters.
• Why you should be building out the marketing strategy well before the ground is broken.
• How COVID affected their thinking towards an online/ digital footprint.
• Chris speaks to the future of marketing in the multifamily industry.
• He shares present and future endeavours he is excited to share about InterRent REIT.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:

• Chris Willoughby on LinkedIn
• InterRent Reit
• Rentsync
• Sync or Swim Podcast
• Sync or Swim Email
   

If you liked this episode, be sure to rate, review, and subscribe or follow Sync or Swim wherever you get your podcasts, Apple, Google Podcasts, or Spotify.

Episode Transcript

CW: “We don't have a huge legacy and heritage as an industry in marketing. I think there are so many different paradigms and frameworks that have been super successful in other industry verticals that, again, no reason why they can't apply to ours as well. You just have to go through sort of the hard work of building those out. Maybe that's a personal thing, but that's what's exciting for me.”

[00:00:26] NS: Hello, and welcome to Sync or Swim, a weekly podcast, brought to you by Rentsync. Where we take a deep dive into the PropTech, multifamily, and rental housing industry. In each episode, we uncover the technologies and strategies used to help overcome operational challenges and increase the value of your multi-family investments. So let’s get into our conversation today.

[00:00:51] NS: Welcome back to Sync or Swim. I’m your host Nicolina Savelli. On this podcast, I chat with multifamily and PropTech experts to learn how you can reach more renters, sign more leases and maximize the value of your assets. Today, we have Chris Willoughby, Vice President of Marketing for InterRent Real Estate Investment Trust, headquartered in Ottawa, Canada, who specializes in residential real estate, and owns, and operates nearly 13,000 suites across 15 Canada. Chris, thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:01:23] CW: It's great to be here, Nicolina. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:25] NS: Now, first, before we dive into the conversation about multifamily marketing and everything, I'd first like to ask a few questions about you and your marketing background. Because you have a different background than what I've typically seen from multifamily marketers. So previous to this role, you are General Marketing Manager for Aeroplan, and held marketing positions at Cossette, Star Alliance, and Young & Rubicam. As someone who did not originate from the rental housing industry, what led you to this industry? What do you think kind of differentiates your skill set from someone who is only focused on apartment marketing in their career?

[00:02:03] CW: Yeah. Well, that's a really good question, because I think about that a lot and I kind of defined myself probably as a marketer first and a real estate professional second, even after three years in this business. I guess so, to answer your first question, what kind of led me to this industry. When I was looking for my next opportunity after leaving Aeroplan, I kind of assessed what was important to me in my next role. I would say, probably at the top of the list was culture. I think working for a company that's got a fantastic corporate culture that really focuses on employee growth, that holds employees accountable, pushes accountability down through the organization empowers employees to make decisions, and to come up with ideas, a strong kind of cohesive family environment, like to have fun. That's obviously at the top of the list for me. 

The second, I would say is probably data. Data is really the lifeblood of marketing, I think, and so many great things that you can do with data to help power your marketing programs. I would say, thirdly, just the opportunity to help shape a marketing practice and a marketing team. I’ve worked throughout my career in well-established marketing environments, so taking the experiences that I've had, and what I've accumulated in terms of knowledge about a lot of different marketing capabilities, I thought it was really a great opportunity to try and take that and really test myself and see how I could leverage that to help build something, where there might not be the same depth of understanding or legacy of marketing practice in place.

I would say for your second question, that's kind of what I think I bring to the table is having kind of a well-rounded marketing background in a number of different industries, and not as someone who's not just focused on one, being able to kind of bring best practices, and ideas, and thoughts from other categories, and see how they work in this industry.

[00:03:50] NS: Yeah, absolutely. Did you ever work in any type of – obviously, Cossette, you probably had your hands in different clients, different projects. Did you ever touch the real estate industry while you were there, or was it no, this all kind of new tactics that you’re bringing to the table?

[00:04:07] CW: I really didn't. I thought about that a little bit before coming on. I'm sure I had one or two projects here and there that had to deal with real estate in some way, shape, or form. But it's really interesting, every industry, I think likes to think that our industry or our category is so different. Things don't work the same way they in other ones, but I've pretty systematically found that consumers are consumers. If you go through sort of a process to try and properly understand them, many of the same structure and the same types of things will work across different industry verticals.

[00:04:40] NS: Yeah. I mean, I come from obviously, B2B marketing and I learned over the years that B2C tactics can be employed to B2B, but you just have to kind of understand your target audience and know how to kind of strategize properly. So to divide yourself to say, “I can't do that. That's B2C. We can't touch that.” It's just not true. I'm sure, like you said, all the same things can be transferable, as long as you know your target audience, and your buyer personas, and how they consume your marketing right. Now, the need for education comes up a lot when speaking about marketing in the multifamily sector. How have you been educating property managers about the importance of marketing?

[00:05:20] CW: Yeah, and you're so right, because it is an industry that doesn't have a deep legacy of marketing. If I'm being honest, when people ask, what are the categories that you think of when you think of kind of cutting-edge marketing and innovation, real estate, and multifamily real estate is probably multi-residential [inaudible 00:05:20] comes top of mind. It is really important to educate. I mean, I would say some things you typically do, just constant dialogue with property managers. I give a lot of presentations on a lot of different topics, trying to make people understand that, what you think of marketing as being basically graphic design, and advertising, and signage, and things like that.

[00:05:58] NS: Print materials, yeah.

[00:05:58] CW: It is going to be part of it, but there's so much more. There's so many more pretty deep subject matter expertise. So putting together in repetition and things like that. But I think beyond that, probably the best way to educate in a way that people really embrace it, is to demonstrate value. I like to try and make them understand intangible terms, and quantifiably if we can, what exactly our marketing initiatives are doing in terms of helping them be more efficient, helping increase the revenues at their communities, saving them costs, and all that kind of stuff. Usually, at the end of the day, not just property managers, but people in general will respond to an argument when they can really understand what's in it for them or tangibly.

[00:06:43] NS: For sure. Now, I don't have this in my question list, and I don't want to turn this into like a data conversation. However, I do want to ask you, if there are any obstacles you're facing right now with attribution, and proving those things to kind of – because as marketers, we try so hard to attribute everything, and make sure that all the strategies and tactics we deploy, and all the campaigns we run, there's some data behind it. Is there anything that you are finding is challenging right now for attribution, or any strategies that you're kind of working with that you're like, I don't know, forgetting the full picture here.

[00:07:18] CW: Yeah, I mean, I don't think any more challenging than you're going to find in any other environment, because I think that's more about the tactic in the channel than it is about the industry. Marketing attribution is always – well, maybe not always, I always think of it as a little bit of a dark art. Like it's – there's lots of models out there. First touch attribution, last touch attribution, multi-touch attribution, and everything in between. But, I think, again, we're just kind of laying the foundation of implementing some of these basic practices. Most things that you do digitally, they're pretty easy to measure if you know someone is taking the action, or the conversion, or accomplishing the goal that you want them to. The same things like offline media and stuff, where they're going to be difficult to sort of prove whether that's here, or whether you're selling apples or anything else. 

I would say like most marketers, we try and find ways. There's obviously now with things like QR codes, and trackable, or dedicated phone numbers, and things like that. There are different ways we can see. But I think the key is really just for marketers to focus on measuring everything, and just keep trying to find [inaudible 00:08:23] to build that vision, and try to eliminate those blind spots. The technology is always improving, so there's – if it doesn't work today, it doesn't mean it's not going to work tomorrow.

[00:08:33] NS: Absolutely, yeah. That kind of leads me to my next question. There are so many channels today that companies can use to advertise their properties. How do you approach deciding which channels to use? How do you try and measure that success?

[00:08:47] CW: Yeah. Well, first of all, it really starts with the objective. I think people can sometimes lose sight of that. Different types of marketing, and different types of tactics, and different types of channels are really effective for different types of needs. If you go back to sort of the traditional marketing funnel, where you think of awareness, consideration, conversion, that's kind of a starting point. As you said, at the front, really understanding your target audience and the persona, and figuring out the best places to reach them by kind of studying them. What are their media habits? What are their sort of daily routines? Then, really trying to understand what the challenge is with that audience that you're facing. Is it a problem with awareness? Is it a problem of consideration where they just don't know a lot about your offering, and you got to educate them? So you got to drive them to a website. Or is it just straight conversion, and we just want to get them to click the button or sign on the dotted line?

Then, once you've sort of established that, you measure all of those things, and you try and just orient your marketing tactics and your plan towards the ones that are demonstrating the greatest ROI. If we're talking about conversions, like booking tours, what are the channels where I can do that in a way that spends the least amount of money, and accomplishes the most conversions that you're looking for, and let's max out that channel, and then move on to the next one if we need more. Also, I would say, really focusing on quality in addition to quantity. I think, we hear a lot about lead generation and things like that, which is great and it's super important. I think people sometimes tend to lose sight of qualified traffic. That, we've seen can vary pretty dramatically from one channel to the next.

[00:10:24] NS: Yeah, of course. I mean, we can get into a conversation about that. I think that we've kind of – I think every channel has its pros and cons, and you can always get a qualified lead from Google ads, and sometimes you just won't. It really depends on how you're maybe working your Google ads, what keywords you're putting in there, and also what people are searching for at the time. It's sometimes a gamble, but for the most part, try and get those quality leads coming through. 

I will say, the reason why I even asked the question about attribution, one of the marketers that came on here said that they were using TikTok for video content and they had someone doing TikTok videos, and I was just curious how that was being measured, because it's a channel that I feel like is growing astronomically. But also, the attribution there is so limited, and I'm just was wondering if there was any way like this dark social is becoming part of your strategy in any capacity as well.

[00:11:18] CW: Yeah, it's a good question. We definitely have our fair share of folks again, that are, “You know, we got to be on TikTok, everybody's on TikTok.” Maybe. I'm very unbiased. when it comes to the best place to be. Again, it comes down to what's the place that's going to satisfy best our objective, taking into account things like our budgets, our resources, et cetera. So actually, this year, I think it was this year. We launched our own TikTok account. I think the other thing we have to – social media is one of those things where I think people really kind of tend to generalize social media where – the way I sort of look at social media, there's different types of social media, if you will. There's kind of the community management aspect, where you're really trying to just promote your brand, and you're looking at metrics like reach, engagement, sentiment, and things like that. You'll measure that by thinking about how many followers do I have, and how engaged are they with the posts, which is about the quality of my content, what's the sentiment, can I measure, is it mostly positive, negative, et cetera. 

Then the other part, though, is really using social media as more of a dedicated kind of conversion channel the same way you would any other digital medium, display advertising, a search, or anything in between, which is really just measured more by conversions, ROI. Well, it's all, hopefully at some point measured in some way by ROI. But if there's a much more tangible sort of effort and return on that effort, and investment. I think, especially in our category, people kind of tend to confuse those two issues, and saying, “We got to be more on TikTok,” but why? It’s our objective to grow our brand, and increase our awareness, then that's fine, and let's maybe do that. I personally don't know that TikTok is at a place yet where people are actually going when they're ready to make a purchase, especially when it comes to residential real estate.

But again, it may change over time. So just about, again, coming back to your objective and doing stuff, but understanding why you're doing it with what objective in mind, and then measuring the success, and being open to change. Trying things too, I think that kind of touches on – and I'm guilty of this as well, and people have proven me wrong, where I'm skeptical about the effectiveness of a channel, and then we'll try it and lo and behold, wow, we generated a lot of leases from that channel, and I'm happy to be proven wrong. The one good thing about marketing is, everyone can bring ideas and thoughts and you got to be open minded. 

[00:13:52] NS: Like what you hear so far, make sure you never miss an episode by clicking the subscribe button now. This podcast is made possible by listeners like you. Thank you for your support. Now, let's get back to the show.

[00:14:06] NS: Totally, yeah. I think that social media marketing has evolved significantly through this COVID kind of transition over the last two and a half years. I think that, especially in the multifamily industry, it was not very well kind of focused, like people weren't focusing on it. Then suddenly, they had to focus on it, because midway through, we got a lot of people saying, social media marketing was the way we reached a lot of our target consumers or target renters. We didn't explore that before. 

So now, it's become a little bit more sophisticated, and the marketing behind it is becoming more sophisticated. It's kind of nice to see that, and I'm sure the attribution will come with time and hopefully – now, I want to kind of pivot a little bit here in the discussion. Recently, we launched our national demand report, and for the first time since – in 2022, rental demand is down pretty much across the whole country of Canada. What are your initial thoughts on demand being down, and how does this affect your rental marketing strategy, if at all?

[00:15:05] CW: Yeah, I did try and bring myself back to my university days and cram by reading the rental report prior to the show [inaudible 00:15:11]. I did —

[00:15:14] NS: Sorry. We don't want our guests to have to do that much work.

[00:15:17] CW: No. Honestly, it's good stuff that I should be following more closely anyway. But I think the demand challenge is, there's kind of short-term reaction to certain things. I think my perspective anyway is that the long-term outlook remains positive, because there's a lot of macroeconomic factors that I think are going to sustain strong demand for a long period of time. It's not a secret that we've got quite a housing shortage in Canada, that's well publicized, much debated and talked about. Also, you look at factors like immigration, which is going to continue to rise, even just sort of general lifestyle trends, where I think, especially younger generation, millennials, et cetera, in part because they can't afford to buy right away. And also, just in part, because we kind of live in a bit of a as-a-service type society where, I don't necessarily want to buy the CD, I just want to stream the music. So translation for us is, I just want to have access to that lifestyle, where I can have a gym in my building, and a nice rooftop without necessarily having to buy it, because there's an immediacy to it, I want it now. And I'm not going to be able to afford that lifestyle for a long time. 

I think for those various reasons, I think the long-term forecast is what keeps us really, really positive. Definitely, and especially as a publicly traded company, we have to be mindful of always satisfying our short-term objectives when it comes to vacancy, et cetera. I look at demand as really kind of a challenge, because, unlike some of the other categories that I've been involved in, it's not like we can create demand, the same way that McDonald's can create demand for coffee, if you're driving by a billboard, and like, “Hey, wow. That’s great. I'm going to pullover and stop.” I'm not naive enough to think that, if we put a nice billboard on the highway, advertising one of our buildings that that's going to make someone think, “Hey, yeah. I should really move.” [Inaudible 00:17:08] is really share, stealing, and that's not the right word, but getting the most of the demand that is there at the time.

Ultimately, that really comes down to differentiation. How are you trying to differentiate yourself from your peers or your competitors in what, like most categories is somewhat of a commodity, right? How is my 700 square foot apartment with two bedrooms and a bathroom that's close to the necessary amenities, and has these in-building amenities, how's that different from the one right next door? How can we exploit that difference and communicate that difference in a way that becomes meaningful for consumers, such that they're more encouraged to go with us than with the other guy? I kind of think of that as a fun challenge. Ultimately, it also just comes down to being really, really prudent, and disciplined, and diligent with how you're spending your dollars. Which is why coming back to data, and the importance of being able to measure things, and just make sure that every dollar has some kind of a reward, and that you know what that reward is at the end of the day.

[00:18:11] NS: Absolutely, yeah. Now, that is a perfect segue into kind of my next question. Which is, can you speak to the importance of not just marketing, but building a strong brand that will resonate with potential renters, and ultimately bring those leads in, and get you that market share that you're looking towards, not creating demand, but getting the demand that's there?

[00:18:33] CW: Yeah. I think that it's something that is somewhat overlooked in our category, because historically, I think the multi-res industry, somewhat out of not really having the need to and somewhat out of just not realizing that that's potentially a benefit. It just not really used that kind of approach in terms of building brands that attract, and create more pull than necessarily just push. I think also, I like to remind folks that brand building takes time. It's not easy, it takes a sustained effort over a prolonged period of time to create that repetition. Apple didn't build its reputation overnight, and we can't build that overnight, either. But I'm convinced that definitely, it's something that if you make part of your marketing mix, and you're disciplined about investing and building a brand, over time, you're going to see great benefits from that, from lower acquisition costs, and all that kind of thing. Ultimately, it's what allows you to charge a premium for your product versus the other guy.

An Apple cellphone and Android have more or less the same features. If they don't, they're easily copied the next day. But the reason why Apple can charge in premium is because the brand represents something and a promise of the type of experience that they're going to deliver. And there isn't really a reason why that can also apply in our case.

[00:19:51] NS: Absolutely. Funny enough, I think Android might have more features than Apple products do at this point, depending on –

[00:19:58] CW: Pound for pound, that’s definitely true. But they've got such a gap, in catching up with the allure, and the sort of sexiness of the brand that – I mean, that's the best example we have, I think in today's marketing landscape of what a brand can do.

[00:20:15] NS: Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, going back to the need for education, we often see new developments get off to a slow start with marketing efforts. When it comes to lease ups, can you speak to the importance of building out the marketing strategy well before ground is broken? Any thoughts on that?

[00:20:31] CW: Yea. I mean, I don't think that that necessarily applies to lease up any more than it does other objectives on your marketing plan. The reality is, the more you plan in advance to build a strong marketing plan, the more you sort of do your homework in advance. We talked about understanding your target audience and that sort of thing, the more successful your marketing plan is going to be. Definitely in the case of a lease up and a new development, there's a lot to consider. There's a lot of moving pieces, there's a lot of coordination, and orchestration that's involved with the development group, the sales team, and lots of other players that are going to make it successful. So yeah, the earlier you start, the better. 

Then again, I guess I'm sounding like a broken record here, but really staying on top of tracking how your marketing and your lease up is doing. Part of your planning is building in contingencies, depending on how you're tracking so that you can course correct if you see things that aren't working, you're falling behind. You don't have to waste weeks kind of replanning and thinking of new strategies, because you've sort of built mechanisms of, if this happens, I'm going to do this. If this happens, I'm going to do this. Obviously, you can't account for every potential scenario. I don't think anybody accounted for COVID in their 2020 mark.

[00:21:42] NS: No, right.

[00:21:43] CW: I think that the ones that probably had a bit more contingencies could easily sort of take that as a starting point, and build on it and react a little bit more quickly than others.

[00:21:53] NS: Absolutely, yeah. That totally makes sense. Now, speaking of COVID, and the remote work era. Obviously, foot traffic was down significantly, during that kind of peak time. Maybe it's peaked up slightly. But can you speak to the importance of having a strong brand and a website specifically, and how your marketing strategy has kind of changed or pivoted, maybe over the course of that? Have you started to incorporate more print and large signage now that we're kind of seeing a little bit more foot traffic? Or are you still focusing on the more digital channels even past kind of that huge kind of drop in foot traffic?

[00:22:37] CW: Yeah. I mean, I think the one great thing, if there was a great thing, or I guess I should position it maybe more as a silver lining to what was otherwise a really difficult time for everybody. COVID did act as a strong instigator for not just our category, but all categories to put in place things that I think intuitively, companies kind of knew they had to do. But I think it's just human nature that people don't necessarily, or companies don't necessarily change until they've sort of got the proverbial gun to the head, and we've kind of got to go in this direction. I've always been a big believer in digital, and that sort of thing. I think incorporating that into our marketing mix anyway was always something we weren't going to do. Obviously, there's a role to play for all different types of media and that sort of thing. But, you know, COVID, definitely accelerated some of that thinking.

I mean, now, definitely opening up to some other tactics, but again, I'm going to come back to, we're unbiased, right? Just because we see more foot traffic, I'm not just necessarily naturally going to assume that print ads are going to work better. I'm going to try and figure out the ones that are actually working better and I can prove it. I'm going to go with those until they prove otherwise.

[00:23:49] NS: Right? Yeah, absolutely. Now, before I kind of round off the conversation, I just wanted to ask you. The multifamily industry is really just scratching the surface in terms of marketing. Could you speak to the future of marketing in this industry, and why you feel it's such an exciting time for marketers?

[00:24:07] CW: Yeah. I think that's really consistent with my background. I think what's exciting is, like I said, we don't have a huge legacy and heritage as an industry in marketing. I think there are so many different paradigms and frameworks that, you know, have been super successful in other industry verticals that, again, no reason why they can't apply to ours as well. You just have to go through sort of the hard work of building those out. Maybe that's a personal thing, but that's what's exciting for me, is really building that out. 

The other good thing, just combining that with my thoughts on where the industry is headed and how it will continue to grow, it's kind of a magic recipe. Because I've definitely been part of industries and companies that are at best stagnant or otherwise sort of a little bit more on the downslope and it's harder. It creates excitement, and obviously, to put in place a lot of more innovative marketing practices, it takes investment, and technology, people, all that sort of thing. To be part of a category that's growing, and also, to feel like you've got a role in helping that growth is really what I think is exciting for marketers and multi-residential now.

[00:25:19] NS: Yeah, absolutely. I think that a lot of marketers were doing the same things for a long time in this industry, and really not exploring a lot of innovation. I will say that any industry could say the same thing, but I really feel like this industry did lack a little bit of innovation. I think that there's just like a world of opportunity, especially with the technologies, I will say, Rentsync is one of those technologies that are really helping to kind of push, and move the needle for marketers, and give them the tools they need to kind of start to really see their efforts take effect and take hold. So yeah. Now, before I finally get to my last question, I just wanted to ask, what are some things going on at InterRent REIT that you are excited to share with us if you can today?

[00:26:02] CW: Yeah. I'm going to pivot. I won't talk about marketing, because I'll come back to sort of the personal side.

[00:26:08] NS: Sure.

[00:26:09] CW: One of the things that I think is just really part of our DNA, along, I would say, with our sort of a sister company, CLV Group, if you will, is just dedication to our communities. I know it sounds a bit cliche and that sort of thing. There's a lot of companies that are doing a lot of great things in their communities, but I really do feel like it's not just lip service at InterRent or at CLV. I think the commitment to our communities is really special. You might know, but we recently just completed our annual Mike McCann Charity Golf Tournament, and we were able to collect $1.4 million that we give back to various charity organizations in the different markets and cities that we do business. When you think about it, that's just a staggering, huge amount. At the end of the day, again, I love the professional challenge of my work. But to know that what you're doing also, and your company is really giving back, I think is really special.

The other thing I would highlight is, we've recently – one of the things I've always believed is, one of our great assets is actually the buildings that we have from a marketing standpoint, and really kind of like blank canvases. That quite literally, in the last few weeks, we've inaugurated two huge murals on two of our buildings. One in Vancouver, which we had a kind of an introduction ceremony or an unveiling ceremony a couple of weeks ago with a wonderful, spectacular mural on one of our communities that was painted by an indigenous artist. It's just fascinating, and it's beautiful, and it's really transformed the neighbourhood into almost a museum and taken what was otherwise a very sort of bland, large wall and built this. I think it's 11-storey mural, which is fantastic. More recently, in Montreal, the same thing on one of our buildings, which was a celebration of the Quebec artist, Jean-Paul Riopelle, which is just another fantastic piece of art. People don't associate real estate necessarily with that, but you can do creative, special things that I think have great benefits for the community and brighten people's lives for sure.

[00:28:18] NS: Absolutely. I mean, I think that as much as there are buildings, there are homes, and just like any home, you want to create this feeling of welcome and warmth. Those are the things that you can do to kind of make your communities feel that way, without them actually having to do anything. I think that that's really positive, and you're making them feel part of the surrounding area. I also just wanted to note that your earlier comment about, you've given back to the community. I think that this industry as much as its real estate, it's also a service industry as well. I mean, it's about giving and making sure that people are happy. That's a huge part of it, and I think that through your marketing, you need to show that, how much you're doing to kind of ensure that your residents are happy, and satisfied, and that your frontline staff are doing everything they can to make them happy. I think that through your marketing, you can achieve that as well.

[00:29:11] CW: Yeah, and you're so right. It's not just good for business. But at the end of the day, we manage people's homes, and we take it seriously, we don't take it for granted. We don't take for granted what an important responsibility that is. Again, one thing that I love about this organization and really starts at the very top with our CEO, Brad Cutsey is, we really do care about the communities that were involved in, and that sort of filters down to the entire organization. We definitely do all go to work every morning, thinking about how we can make the lives of not just our residents, but our communities better. That makes you feel good about what you do.

[00:29:48] NS: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Chris, thank you so much for joining me today. I know your time is precious. I just have one last question and that's if listeners are looking to follow you or interested in learning more about InterRent REIT, where can they go?

[00:30:02] CW: Yeah, of course. Well, our website’s always the best start, www.interrentreit. I'm sure you can find it, not always the easiest to spell, but interrentreit.com. Yeah, we're happy to have you visit us digitally or in person.

[00:30:17] NS: Perfect. Well, until next time, keep swimming. Take care, Chris.

[00:30:22] CW: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[00:30:24] NS: You’ve reached the end of another episode of Sync or Swim. Make sure to visit us at rentsync.com/podcast to access show notes, key takeaways and where you can sign up to our newsletter to receive free bonus content. If you found value in the show, please also remember to rate, review and subscribe. Don’t forget to join us next week for another episode. Thanks for listening.