E95: Moving2Canada - Unlocking the Newcomer Experience

The thing I hate the most about rental scams is that it is usually a few thousand dollars that the scammers get away with, and often from multiple people. I think I saw reports of up to 70 people sending through deposits for first month rent in Ontario. That's that. I think one other thing to remember with scams as well is that they're not necessarily always after your money. That's the more common one, but I think doesn't increase in scams just seeking personal information.”

-Stephanie Ford

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:30] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to another episode of Sync or Swim, brought to you by RentSync. From operational challenges to marketing mastery, we uncover the strategies and technologies and all things prop tech. Let's dive in as we explore the trends, tactics and insights that define the future of multifamily investments. Sync or Swim starts now.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:00:52] GL: Hey, everybody. My name is Giacomo Ladas as always. Today, we're going to dive into the newcomer experience in Canada with Stephanie Ford. She is the Head of Content Strategy at Moving2Canada, who is a great partner of ours. Stephanie, thanks for joining us today.

[0:01:07] SF: Yeah, thanks for having me.

[0:01:09] GL: You're very welcome. I think we're just going to dive right into it and talk a little bit about Moving2Canada's story. How did Moving2Canada come to be and start and what really inspired it?

[0:01:18] SF: Yeah. Moving2Canada started as a Facebook community back in 2011. Since then, it's growing into the huge hub of resources that we have today. We share free tools, templates and information that has helped millions of people with their move to Canada. We share information covering everything from immigration and finances to jobs. I think importantly, for your audience, accommodation.

[0:01:41] GL: Yes.

[0:01:42] SF: I started with Moving2Canada in January 2024, so the start of last year. I guess, my job is to figure out what our audience needs to know and then create content that answers those burning questions and that keeps them informed about the ever-growing list of changes that might impact them. As for what inspired Moving2Canada, the company was founded by my boss, Ruairi Spillane. He saw that immigration and settlement information was often gate-kept. I think this is a common theme among legal resources. He felt it was really important to break down those barriers and make that high-quality, independent information available to everyone. That was where we started.

[0:02:20] GL: Started as a Facebook group.

[0:02:22] SF: Yeah.

[0:02:23] GL: Well, that's interesting. Again, curious how the communities evolved over time, but I think that answers it, right? It started on Facebook and now look where it's been. How have you seen it evolve over the short amount of time that you've been here?

[0:02:33] SF: Well, I actually, I was aware of Moving2Canada because I am also an immigrant.

[0:02:38] GL: Spoiler alert by the accent. Spoiler alert.

[0:02:42] SF: Yeah. They are a dominant force whenever it comes to immigration resources. A bunch of my friends who all went through the process with me knew them. I think one of my friends fangirled a little bit when she realized I was now working for Ruairi Spillane, because he's just omnipresent when it comes to immigration. Yeah. Initially, it was a Facebook community really geared towards IEC. It's International Experience Canada, which is often called the Working Holiday Program. Yeah, it's now transitioned to, as I said, we have a huge group of resources. There's a website. We have an email community with hundreds of thousands of readers. The website gets millions of views each year. Then obviously, we have active social media presence channels as well.

[0:03:24] GL: No, that's awesome. It's hard not to find you guys if you need them, right? It's just the presence is awesome. It's huge and it's a big helping hand. What makes it different then? What makes it different than other housing resources, or other immigration services that people maybe use, who haven't heard of you? Nice little pitch here, which you guys are a little bit different.

[0:03:41] SF: Yeah. It was really important for the early team members to disrupt the status quo, which was a pay-per-play when it came to immigration information. Our business model relies on connecting our community with quality products and services that they need throughout the whole journey to support their success in Canada, as opposed to selling one particular product to them, like, say, immigration consultations, which is where you see a lot of the other immigration information coming up. We're really designed to support newcomers throughout the entire immigration and settlement journey at no cost to them.

We're also different in that we don't just report the news. We really take the time to translate what it means for people who are hoping to immigrate, or for those who are already here and just want their life to be that little bit easier during the first crucial years.

[0:04:32] GL: I think a big advantage that your organization has is the team that work in that organization. I think that's a good segue into talking a little bit about you. Tell us about your experience coming to Canada for the first time. I'm sure that experience led you perfectly into the role you're in now amongst your team. Tell us a little bit about your experience coming here.

[0:04:50] SF: I am an accidental implant in Canada. I came here as a tourist and a couple of weeks in, I really wanted to move here. I went back to Australia and got my IEC permit, the working holiday one that I discussed earlier. Yeah, during this time, I did a couple of short-term stays with roommates, which I think is pretty typical for younger people moving into a fairly expensive housing market.

[0:05:15] GL: Definitely.
[0:05:17] SF: Yeah, from there, I transitioned to a permanent residence. During that time, I moved in with my partner, who's a Canadian as well. He initially owned his home when I met him, so I moved in with him, but we actually had a roommate for a few years there.

[0:05:31] GL: Where did you move to? Where was the first place that you, or at least came and visit in Canada? Where was the first impression?

[0:05:35] SF: I had done a short three-week journey first. The first one was just a whirlwind of all of the major tourist hits. I get Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal. I did go to Kelowna and Big White during that quick trip. Then the second trip where I was coming to stay for a bit longer, I went up to Big White for the last two months of the ski season to try and learn how to snowboard, which is –

[0:06:01] GL: It's hard. It’s hard.

[0:06:04] SF: Yeah, learning as an adult is no joke. Yeah, that's a work in progress still, six years on, but I'm having fun with it.

[0:06:11] GL: Oh, it's awesome. you got to see – I think that's the exciting thing about Canada, though, especially for newcomers. You might be in your little area in this province, but the province next to you is almost a completely different country with all the different mountains and elevation and ocean. Then you have the prairies. It's a bunch of different landscapes in one country. I'm sure that part was exciting for you as it is for most newcomers who come here.

[0:06:31] SF: Yeah, definitely. I was actually doing the digital nomad thing in Europe before moving here. The first few years, I was shocked that my itchy feet, they say, just disappeared. I'd constantly moved around when I was in Europe, out of a backpack. As soon as I discovered Kelowna, I stayed here. The pandemic hit, and we couldn't move, but I didn't feel constrained at all. Kelowna is beautiful. There are so many beautiful places just within a couple of – Yeah, a few hours from here, you can go to so many different beautiful places. I love it.

[0:07:05] GL: I worry about the opposite. I've never been to Europe. My name's Giacomo. I'm obviously Italian. I worry, if I go visit Italy, I won't come back. That's the opposite worry, but that's another time there. Yeah, I think you can help answer this for yourself, but also those you interact with. What are some of the challenges that you find newcomers face within that first initial three to six months of coming to this country?

[0:07:25] SF: It is so variable, which I think is why I'm moving to Canada covers such a varied range of topics. The big hit is for temporary residents are often accessing healthcare, navigating the ever-changing at the moment immigration pathways. Banking systems can be complicated and, of course, finding the right accommodation. Finding accommodation actually, I think, for both temporary and permanent residents when they get in. Housing can be surprisingly expensive, I think, which can be a really significant challenge, especially in the first few years.

[0:07:57] GL: We know it, right? We know the challenges that it faces. Even when you're working in industry, we are at some point, just looks at numbers on a spreadsheet. Then when you really take a second and realize what these costs are and hear stories of, especially of newcomers, it does hit home for sure. I think it adds to some of the misconceptions as well as housing in Canada. I'm sure you have some examples as well from talking to people, but are there misconceptions about coming to Canada and looking for housing that you've heard people face, or that maybe they're not informed about?

[0:08:25] SF: I think the funny one for me was the basement suite. That's not a type of accommodation that I was familiar with at all. I immediately imagine just dark, grimy, really small space, which is not always the case. I've seen some lovely basement suites since I've been here. If you're coming in, do not write off basement suites. They can be absolutely incredible and a more affordable option a lot of the time. I do think one of the more serious misconceptions that I see, especially moving to Canada, is that the rental housing is the same across Canada. I think it's really important for people to understand that from province to province, the rules do change when it comes to rentals. I think that can take people by surprise and it can put them on the back foot if they're moving to a different province, or coming from a different country. The rules are pretty strict and they might not be what you expect.

[0:09:23] GL: That's interesting. I'm curious on the flip side there about the notion of renting in general. I feel like, Canada has, like about a term, a stigma of renting where it's almost a lesser form of living than housing. Is that like that in other places that you've travelled to? Is it like that where you're from? Would you find that in other areas of traveling through the globe really? Because I feel like, in other parts of the world really, especially what I've heard in Europe is renting is really normal. It's not a stigmatized thing, but I think it's a little bit still in Canada I find.

I'm not sure why, especially because as you mentioned, basement apartments are a lot of them are really nice. It's not a different way of living. It just maybe doesn't fit your lifestyle, right? I do think there is a little bit of a stigma at times of renting in Canada in general.

[0:10:06] SF: Yeah, I think so. I do think it's the same in Australia. I think Australia possibly has the same tagline, like we’re a nation of homeowners.

[0:10:14] GL: Okay.

[0:10:14] SF: Yeah. They emphasize from when you're a kid that you grow up, you get a real job and then you get a home. I see that in Canada as well. It's definitely different across Europe. One of my very close friends in Germany, his housing is just outside of a major city in Europe. It's more of a multi-family, multi-generational lot. There are multiple houses on the same – they have a family-run business on the same lot as well. He went away and rented in other places, but it was expected that that would either, he would eventually live there and earn that. That tends to be – I've seen that across a lot of other places. I did live in Sweden as well. I think housing is a lot more affordable there. People do tend to own property, but there is no shame around renting there at all.

[0:11:08] GL: No, for sure. That's why it's interesting talking to people who've been around the world and those who live in different countries, just how normal renting is. In some places, it's not. I was very much grown the same way. You go to school, maybe rent for a bit, buy a house and that's what you do. But we're seeing it's not the case right now with, which are the costs. No, it's interesting to ask. Thank you for that.

It might be an obvious question, but I am just curious, what cities seem to attract the most newcomers and why is that the case? Is it just the standard capital cities, or is there any deeper reasoning behind some of them?

[0:11:40] SF: Yeah, definitely. We don't have really recent data on this. Canada's federal government once per year drops a really good chunk of data on this and they have not done that for 2024. A lot of what I know about it so far is from the 2023 report, but people do tend to move to Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal to a lower extent. But yeah, Toronto and Vancouver attract the lion's share of immigration and newcomers. I still see this, if you go on Reddit and people looking, even for a working holiday, which I don't know, when I picture a working holiday, it tends to be more people going to a ski resort, or fruit picking, doing the really touristy jobs that might not attract Canadian workers in the same way, because it's so seasonal. Even then, a lot of people are still, “I want to go to Toronto. I want to get a job there and then I want to become a permanent resident,” which you do have to keep that in mind if you're coming across just on a temporary permit.

Yeah, I think they're known globally as hubs for jobs. Young people are attracted to cities. We're seeing that everywhere. People are moving from regional areas to the cities, ideally for better economic opportunities. Yeah, that's played out in Canada's immigration as well.

[0:12:59] GL: I can imagine the sticker shock though, especially if it's Toronto, Vancouver. Rental prices in Vancouver are sometimes double, or even more than an area in Saskatchewan, Regina, Winnipeg, right? Toronto is quite the same, it's about double. You're coming to Canada, these are the first cities you're going to and you're seeing immediately the highest end of the housing scale, which comes part of the territory moving to a major city, which has all the opportunities, but welcome to Canada, this is the most expensive rent you're going to find. Well, not like this, but this is what it's going to cost you by just welcome to these cities.

They're international draws, Vancouver and Toronto. That's when I talk to people about the prices of rent. It's hard for a city like Vancouver, for example, that is an international location. Everyone knows about it, wants to come here to see these rents decrease so much, because it is such a popular area, same with Toronto. Yeah, it's definitely sticker shock. I can definitely imagine how, I think, would impact them.

[0:13:51] SF: Yeah. An interesting little immigration tidbit, the federal and provincial governments both want to encourage immigration outside of the major cities. They're trying. They haven't worked out a really good way to do that yet, because we are still seeing a lot of immigration going to those two major cities. Yeah, that's a change that I've got my eye on to see how it shapes things over the next decade or so.

[0:14:14] GL: Oh, interesting. I don't really know about that, but that's interesting.

[0:14:17] SF: No, that's in the weeds in immigration.

[0:14:20] GL: Let's get in the weeds. For actually navigating this Canadian rental market, what should these renters know about things like, credit history, guarantors, references in Canada? What are some things that they should have in the back of their mind when they're looking for this move and getting a place?

[0:14:35] SF: Yeah. I do have, I guess, a bit of perspective on this. My partner and I kept the starter home that he had and we now – we do rent that one out. I can give a landlord perspective, as well as just the moving to Canada perspective where we hear.

[0:14:50] GL: Yeah, absolutely.

[0:14:51] SF: Yeah, we hear people's questions all the time. The landlord perspective is, it's going to vary from landlord to landlord. I'm personally not super concerned about a high or low credit score. I know that mine was garbage when I first came to Canada and now it's good. It doesn't mean a lot to me if somebody who is young, or somebody who is a newcomer to Canada has not a great credit score. There might be some landlords out there where they live or die by that. They might just not be willing to rent. They might have had a bad experience. Yeah, I know that there are some that are fairly harsh and fairly strict on that. In any event, it is never going to hurt your application to have a better credit score and to be working on building it.

A few quick tips is just don't have your credit cards maxed out. That would probably be a bigger flag for me than having just the low credit score due to not much time in Canada. Missed payments on your credit report are going to hurt your chances a little bit. Do what you can to not miss payments in your early years. If you do miss them, we have had people apply before with missed payments, and I think the trend is to just include a letter of explanation for what happened and why it's not going to happen again.

[0:16:07] GL: Just give you anything that could help, right? Just, that makes sense.

[0:16:10] SF: Yeah. I think it's a really good idea, if you're applying for a house, just to bear in mind that your landlord wants two things. They want someone who they can trust to treat their property with care and respect and to pay rent on time. If you have anything in your personal history that shows that you're good for those two things, I think, like get creative and include it. It can help your application stand out.

[0:16:33] GL: I love that. That's so simple. It seems so simple when you say it like that, right? It's true. I don't know what else most landlord just care about than that. That's great advice. When a renter is arriving in Canada, what are some key documents that they should have ready, that's a quick little checklist of things to definitely make sure they have?

[0:16:50] SF: Yeah. I think if you're coming from another country and hoping to rent pretty quickly, having your out-of-country landlord write out a reference can be really helpful. If it's not in English, get it translated to English, or French if you're moving to a more predominantly French speaking area. It can be a big hurdle for landlords to have out-of-country references and that you just have a phone number and a name that you potentially can't pronounce as well. Yeah, landlords assume that they're busy and that they want the application process to just be easy. If you have your out-of-country reference versus someone else with an in-country reference, that's a hurdle. Whatever references you can get from out of country, just make it written down, easy to contact them.

I've also seen bank statements showing the transfer of rents in the other countries just to prove that you do have that history of paying rent on time. If you have significant savings in another country, that can be really helpful as well. Show proof that you have the funds to pay for it. If you've got that job offer already lined up when you land in Canada, yeah, the job offer, having that to hand can be really helpful. Yeah, I think just having all of that ready before you start looking for housing can be really helpful as well. Because if you go to that first house, you love it, but then you start the application process, then you start gathering documents. It takes you two weeks to get it back. Probably, three other people have applied in that time and who knows, it might already be filled. Coming prepared can be a really good thing.

[0:18:26] GL: That's what we tell even just our Canadian renters who are born here, right? Just in the time it takes for you to get all your documents together, somebody is probably already looking at that building who have their documents together that did the work beforehand. Just a really great tip there. Is that a mistake you often see newcomers make? Shifting a little bit to some of these common mistakes. Stephanie, dance a little bit around things that they can do to improve their chances, or just get ahead of the curve, which I'm assuming the opposite are mistakes they could make. Do you have any common mistakes you've seen some newcomers make that maybe if they fix them, they could avoid some of the downfalls?

[0:19:00] SF: The most common one, unfortunately, is scams.

[0:19:03] GL: Oh, for sure.

[0:19:04] SF: Yeah. It's a really tough one. It's a really heart-breaking one. Moving2Canada wrote a fairly comprehensive piece in conjunction with rentals. If we could drop that one in the show notes, I think that could be helpful –

[0:19:15] GL: Definitely.

[0:19:17] SF: - because, yeah, I could talk about rental scams all day. The other one that's a bit, I guess, more practical is just people committing to a one-year lease, without really getting to know the neighbourhood. Yeah, people can often feel quite rushed to source a place to stay before they come, because obviously, staying in a hotel, or Airbnb can be quite expensive to start off with. We do see people who are willing to and do sign a one-year lease just before they arrive. That's a breeding ground for scams. But assuming it all turns out okay, it does come with the problem of you don't know the neighbourhood.

We see people who move into a home and then realise that it's too far from transit and they're going to need a car which they hadn't budgeted for. They thought they would be living in Toronto without a vehicle. It can be a really, really expensive mistake to make when you first come here. A tip for overcoming this one. I like that I get to plug the rentals website on this.

[0:20:15] GL: Oh, stop. No, we do, too.

[0:20:18] SF: The neighbourhood score and the commute time, I think that's a really valuable tool. Whether, I mean, the rentals.ca website has it all in one place. It's really easy to understand. But whatever tool you end up using, just make sure that you work out how long it's going to take you to walk from there to the closest bus. The bus might take you two hours to get to work. Whereas, if you're five minutes from the train line, it might only be a 15-minute commute. They seem like small decisions, but they are decisions that can make a huge difference when it comes to how much spare time you have for yourself in your first year.

[0:20:51] GL: Yeah. There's a lot to unpack there. Especially with the scams, when the housing crisis was really in full swings, a couple of years ago when demand was so high and supply was really low, it's one of those unfortunate instances where scams occur the most when people are the most desperate, right? Unfortunately. Then, they occur to those who are hoping for the best and we're seeing these horrible stories of people sending thousands of dollars to who they thought would be a landlord to hold a building without even seeing the building.

We try to educate renters as much as possible. That's why I like hammering this topic. It's just look after yourself. Don't send money on somewhere, unless you signed a lease agreement, right? There's so many steps and tips that I'm sure you've told people, but just that unfortunate thing when people are desperate, those are the ones that typically fall for these scams. We encourage people to obviously do the research and again, a little plug in rentals. We do have a verified listing program, where if you see a checkmark next to a listing, that means the landlord had to verify their face and provide their government ID, so we know at least who the landlord is. But I'm sure you've come across so many scams of it. It's unfortunate, but it's just a part of the rental housing industry in Canada and probably other areas of the world, too.

[0:22:01] SF: Yeah, I'd say so. The thing I hate the most about rental scams is that it is usually a few thousand dollars that the scammers get away with, and often from multiple people. I think I saw reports of up to 70 people sending through deposits for first month rent in Ontario. That sucks. I think one other thing to remember with scams as well is that they're not necessarily always after your money. That's the more common one, but I think there’s an increase in scams just seeking personal information. If you get a rental application and it seems to be asking for quite a lot of stuff, like your social insurance number, bank account numbers, that kind of thing, just put a little flag in that and yeah, maybe treat that as a scam, until proven otherwise. I don't see why landlords would need that information.

[0:22:50] GL: Definitely not. As I've already mentioned, we will have the show notes a piece there, so you can just get a little bit understanding of what to look out for and just some of the warning signs there. That was great. We don't want to be too negative, but it's an inevitable part of the ecosystem. You're just to talk about scams a little bit, unfortunately.

[0:23:06] SF: Yeah. I mean, they're there, but I personally didn't come across any. I guess, I was potentially lucky, or just had some good antennae. If something looks too good to be true, I was like, oh, that's probably not right. Something going on there. I guess, they're common. I personally didn't experience one. It's not like everyone here is out to scam you, but it is just something to have in the back of your mind at all times when you're looking at housing.

[0:23:32] GL: Absolutely. I was going to segue to some steps, so that people can take before arriving in Canada to improve their chances of finding a proper suitable dwelling, whether it's a house rental basement apartment. Touchdown a little bit there, but any steps that maybe they should take an order for a second, third, fourth in order to help improve their chances?

[0:23:52] SF: I'm a really big fan of temporary accommodation, or something quite short-term before transitioning to a longer term. For one, something temporary does give you the chance to show that in Canada, you can make those monthly payments. You can show your bank statement from Canada in a format that a landlord is familiar with. Yeah, I think I know it's not always the most popular route, or the most affordable, but if you can just consider it an investment and not getting scammed and making sure you find the right fit, as opposed to the only one you can find from abroad, that might make it just a little bit more palatable to pay the extra fees that come with short-term rentals.

If you really do want to get an apartment from abroad, yeah, I'm not going to lie, it's tricky. Housing is competitive, so you'll probably be going up against local applicants who are able to show a history of renting in Canada. Yeah, I think, again, if you're going down that route, you're potentially getting primed for paying above-market rents just for the hassle the landlord goes through. Yeah, just the same as I said before, if you get your out-of-country landlords references in English or French, depending on what the primary spoken languages are of the region you're in, your landlord might even say, if they prefer applications in English or French, or you can ask.

[0:25:16] GL: Absolutely.

[0:25:17] SF: Yeah, get that financial proof, anything you can show to show that you're ready, willing, and able to pay rent and treat the property with care when you're in Canada.

[0:25:27] GL: No, that's great. The temporary is a great thought, and then something that I'm assuming you benefited a lot from just those short bursts in different areas just to understand. Not to harp too much about your credit history, but do you have any tips for building credit to enhance your rental profile? Because I think you mentioned, you might be the perfect person to talk about. You said, your credit wasn't where you wanted to be when you came to Canada. Any tips to help build that up, if people are having the same issue?

[0:25:56] SF: Everyone starts with a zero when they come here. Even though I had a really good credit score in Australia, that doesn't mean anything for a lot of the time. The major credit bureaus here that I can't tell Equifax like, “Look, my score is great in Australia. Can I please have a good credit score here?”

[0:26:13] GL: So strange.

[0:26:14] SF: Yeah. Starting from a very low score. I think it's even tricky to get credit initially. You can't just apply for a credit card. You have to show some history of payments before you can do things. It takes a while to build momentum. I started just with phone plans. I think a utilities account, that kind of thing, and slowly built up from there. Once I got my credit card here, that really built quite a lot of momentum. Then, I think I was quite fortunate in that I had the – I met my Canadian partner and that did allow me a lot of advantages. I went on one of his credit cards as just an authorized user. I think that accelerated things quite a lot.

I eventually put a deposit on his property to buy into it. When I put the money in, we refinanced in my name went on the mortgage, then I had the mortgage payment. I don't know if I can give the tip to find a Canadian partner.

[0:27:17] GL: That's the next episode. We'll do a match game, or something.

[0:27:22] SF: Yeah. I had a lot of advantages in my building journey.

[0:27:26] GL: You know what, though? It's a marathon, not a sprint, right? It's not something that you're going to expect just to accomplish all this in your first couple of weeks there, right? I think it's the mindset of this is going to be some time. It's going to be a journey to get to where I need to be. I think a lot of it is just mindset of that. I think we would have been with that as well.

[0:27:43] SF: Oh, yeah. It's years. It's probably only been the last year and a half, two years, where my score has really been where I wanted it to be. I don't think it moved very quickly the first two years.

[0:27:55] GL: My mind's not even moving quickly enough. No.

[0:27:59] SF: Yeah. Another first scam, if someone tells you they can move your credit score very quickly, be cautious.

[0:28:05] GL: That's a scam. All right, so Moving2Canada. What's next? Let's look ahead a little bit. What's next for your organization and think most importantly, how does somebody find you guys?

[0:28:16] SF: As for what's next, we have recently changed email platforms just to make our content a little bit more accessible. We're creating some really exciting new email journeys. We've got some new tools in the works, which I'm excited about. We're starting to focus on downloadable guides. Just to make the information that we have on the site a little bit more siloed, you can get one question really comprehensively answered in one place. One potential weakness of the site is just that it is gigantic. Finding the information you need isn't always easy. We've got a couple of really exciting things in place to make that information a lot more accessible and a lot easier to find.

As for where you can find us, we're at moving2canada.com online. If you hit register anywhere, even just on the home page, you can put your email address in, and it will ask you to submit a short form. It'll say what pathway you're interested in. If you complete that, then we can really give you information tailored for where you're at. If you say you're coming through IEC, we'll send you through IEC-related resources. If you tell us you're coming through express entry, you'll start getting an update any time there's a draw, so you don't have to hit refresh on the express entry page like a madman any time it's a draw week. They're really tailored and really timely, which I love. We're also @moving2canada on most social platforms.

[0:29:41] GL: We love it. We're going to do our part to promote and share all this as well in the show notes. Once again, Stephanie, Head of Content and Strategy at Moving2Canada. Really appreciate your time. I'm sure we're going to chat again moving forward. We hope this is a really good combination of two organizations who are trying to move the needle in the right way for newcomers to come into this country. Thank you for your time. We're really, really excited for us to come for you guys, because Moving2Canada is an exceptional organization doing a lot of good. Thanks so much for your time.

[0:30:05] SF: Yeah, no worries. Thank you.

[0:30:07] GL: All right. We'll chat again.